Damn it! Han shot first!!!!

[Kzach]

Two years later, in American Cinematographer, he said:
"The other versions will disappear. Even the 35 million tapes of Star Wars out there won't last more than 30 or 40 years. A hundred years from now, the only version of the movie that anyone will remember will be the DVD version (the Special Edition)."

Honestly, I consider this to be despicable. Remake the films but don't try to alter history out of some egomaniacal desire to fix the mistakes of your past.

Regardless, George is old and unhealthy so he'll die soon and in 50 years when his copyright's are up, someone will remake the films better than ever, so suck it Porgie-pie.

 

[Dire Bare]

And really, if you're talking about original intent and original scripts, why aren't you wondering why Lando isn't a clone trooper like he was 'meant to be'? Why isn't Kenobi the father of Luke? Why isn't Luke a general when the story begins? Why doesn't Han Solo have gills? Why doesn't Obi-Wan rise from the dead to fight Vader at the end? This is all stuff from the screenplays.

Now you're being silly. Lucas' ideas, from initial conception to the final screenplay to the actual filmed movie most certainly did change quite a bit. This is not odd, wrong, or strange, it's how stories often come together . . . in movies, tv shows, novels, comics, etc.

Lucas claims that when filming "A New Hope", after his ideas evolved into his shooting screenplay, that he intended the scene to portray Greedo shooting first. The scene certainly didn't end up this way. Why? Lucas worked with a lot of other writers, directors, and the multitudes of folks who are necessary to bring a movie to life . . . perhaps his intention got mislaid during the normal process of movie making. Or perhaps he DID change his mind later, and decided the scene would work better by changing it to Greedo shooting first, and then convinced himself that's what he always had wanted. It's certainly possible.

Without evidence to the contrary, I'm the sort of guy who takes the artist at his word. It's certainly possible Lucas is wrong or lying, but I don't see why I should assume that. Absolutely nothing in this thread has convinced me otherwise.

And, you know what? Lucas' original intentions for the scene is a red herring. If someone DID dig up a video from the 70s showing Lucas all ecstatic about having Han shoot first . . . . I could care less! It still doesn't justify the histrionics too many fans devolve into.

It boils down to this (for me): Lucas decided to change his original films by adding, deleting, and changing scenes, also by tinkering with the special effects. You might not care for some of the decisions he made (Han Shot First), really like others, and you might like or not like the overall end product of the "special editions" (and the later tinkerings). That's all fair. It's acting like Lucas has sinned against your childhood or the sanctity of film history that gets me annoyed.

Not that anyone should really care if they annoy me, just my perspective.

 

[Dire Bare]

Regardless, George is old and unhealthy so he'll die soon and in 50 years when his copyright's are up, someone will remake the films better than ever, so suck it Porgie-pie.

And you've proved my point (well, to me anyways). Now we're crowing that he's old, (supposedly) unhealthy, and soon to die? Sheesh. No wonder the man could care less what a certain segment of his fan base rants about.

And when Lucas does eventually pass on, and someone else at Lucasfilm decides to remake the films yet again (I agree it will probably happen) . . . what makes you think you'll like the "new" versions? It'll be just more of the same . . .

 

[Relique du Madde]

Here's the issue.. He may say he intended Han to shoot second, then why didn't he select the footage that supports that claim when he originally created the original master print?

He could have easily used the special edition footage or done something more evocative of the western like the following:

As Greedo and Han spoke, the camera would have focused on their eyes. Then when Han said "over my dead body" the camera suddently focuses on Greedo pulling the trigger and you see the flash and sparks of a squib igniting (it would have served as a nice book end to cut of Han Solo manipulating his gun under the table). Cut to flash and smoke from Han's gun as the rest of the original scene plays out, giving the audience a OMFG moment and a loud round of applause when they realized that either Han and Greedo both shot at the same time and Greedo sucks at aiming or Greedo just sucks at being a bounty hunter and Han is a bad ass.

For someone who said the film was inspired by westerns and samurai cinema it just amazes me how much he refused to buy into their cinematic techniques to punch up the emotion of a scene that plays one one of their tropes.


As for the movie bombing in the theaters. Part of it is because I despise directors and producers who rerelease films in the theater to take advantage of a gimmick or with an almost negligable amount of "new footage" that only amounts to new special effects. If you wantt to prove you are a good director, producer, writer or what ever do it with a new project not be noodling around with something you produced 5+ years ago.


The theatrical rerelease of the prequals and the original films reaks of a despirate attempt to snatch money from the same fans that despises due to their "over critical nature." Just put out the films on dvds/blue ray like everyone else are doing and call it a day!

-Sent via Tapatalk

 

[Relique du Madde]

Double post

 

[jonesy]

Lucas claims that when filming "A New Hope", after his ideas evolved into his shooting screenplay, that he intended the scene to portray Greedo shooting first.

If he's saying that then he's lying. The shooting sceenplay doesn't even have Greedo in it. The shooting script, which I might add, calls the movie "Episode 1".

The filming began March 22, 1976. Greedo was added February 5, 1977, making it one of the last things added before the movie came out that summer.

 

[Dire Bare]

If he's saying that then he's lying. The shooting sceenplay doesn't even have Greedo in it. The shooting script, which I might add, calls the movie "Episode 1".

The filming began March 22, 1976. Greedo was added February 5, 1977, making it one of the last things added before the movie came out that summer.

Eh, you're not getting what I'm trying to say. 'Course, I may not be making myself clear, that happens a lot, especially on issues I'm not all that invested in. You obviously have done more "homework" on this pressing issue than I have, as I have never owned nor read the screenplays published. I don't doubt your timeline. But again, I don't really care as the "issue" of who shot first or what Lucas' original intent was isn't the issue I'm really talking about.

When I said the "shooting screenplay", I meant the process of Lucas making his movie, the actual filming and creating of the film, not the literal screenplay itself. As Lucas was making his film, he claims his intent for that scene was not to portray Han as a "cold-blooded killer" and that Greedo shot first. I have no reason to doubt what Lucas has said on the issue. Again, it's possible Lucas is devilishly trying to mess with the minds of loyal Star Wars fans, or is a feeble old guy who changed his mind and has convinced himself otherwise. But there is no real evidence that Lucas is mistaken or lying. Aaaanddd, it doesn't really matter if he is a big fat liar and/or a senile old film director.

The issue, from my perspective, is . . . so what? The change happened, regardless of how or why it happened, some folks think it was a poor decision that made the newer versions of the film poorer than the original, and I think that's a fair point of view.

It's the vitriol. The not only baseless, but needless, claims that Lucas is a liar and/or a senile old fool. The claims that Lucas has destroyed the childhood of all true Star Wars fans, that he has taken something that has brought so much light into our dark world and sullied it forever.

Even if you could get me to agree with you that, a) the movie changes are unequivocally terrible to anyone with even a slight amount of common sense, and b) that Lucas is a revisionist and manipulative man lying about his own creative process for no real gain . . . I'd still ask, "And how exactly has this ruined your childhood again?"

 

[wilrich]

One thing that others in this thread have alluded to and which I have always wondered about is the whole idea that it was some how cold blooded or "wrong" for Han to have shot first. I (and I think most people) would disagree with that moral judgment.

Greedo was pointing a gun at Han and had spoken words which (I think) any reasonable person would interpret as a statement that "I intend to kill you, Han". Even without that statement, I (and, again, I think most people) have no moral qualms or issues with a person shooting a person who is pointing a gun at another person in these circumstances -- put another way (from a moral, not legal, perspective), one does not need to wait for another person to actually attempt to kill them and fail before the right of self defense or protection applies.

Again, maybe somewhat off topic, and I hope it doesn't stray too much into the real world, but I've never understood the need to "justify" Han shooting first because, again, I think to most reasonable people, there was nothing immoral about Han having done so.

The fact that Lucas has felt the need to change this scene clearly demonstrates that his own morality does not comport with mine and (my sense is) most people's.

 

[Kzach]

I have no reason to doubt what Lucas has said on the issue.

And yet you are being shown evidence that warrants such doubt and choose to ignore it in order to continue riling the very people you claim spend too much time and effort invested in such arguments.

But there is no real evidence that Lucas is mistaken or lying.

Oh, ok, so you're not PURPOSEFULLY ignoring the evidence shown to you, you're just not paying attention to anything being said here other than your own opinion.

The issue, from my perspective, is . . . so what?

If you don't get it and don't care, then why are you making such a concerted effort to stir argument in this thread?

I think you need to step back and view the reality you so desperately cling to as being the all important juxtaposition of your value judgements in this thread and realise that fan is short for fanatic and that such people devote a lot of emotional resources into such franchises and that by doing so, give Lucas a mega-ass ton of money. Then he goes and changes everything solely to cater to a newer audience so that he can milk new fans and screw everyone else over that have built the franchise into the mega-sensational success that it is today. Although according to Lucas, he was solely responsible for that and fans had nothing to do with it and he owes them no loyalty or respect for making him one of the richest people on the planet.

 

[Dire Bare]

If you don't get it and don't care, then why are you making such a concerted effort to stir argument in this thread?

I think you need to step back and view the reality you so desperately cling to as being the all important juxtaposition of your value judgements in this thread and realise that fan is short for fanatic and that such people devote a lot of emotional resources into such franchises and that by doing so, give Lucas a mega-ass ton of money. Then he goes and changes everything solely to cater to a newer audience so that he can milk new fans and screw everyone else over that have built the franchise into the mega-sensational success that it is today. Although according to Lucas, he was solely responsible for that and fans had nothing to do with it and he owes them no loyalty or respect for making him one of the richest people on the planet.

Heh, suffice to say you and I disagree. I've read the entire thread, and I have seen absolutely no evidence that Lucas is lying or has gone senile. I suppose you and I (and others, of course), don't see the presented "evidence" the same way.

Why did I post originally and continue to post? I already answered that one. I find the vitriol that a segment of fandom has towards Lucas ridiculous and irritating. It's a pet peeve of mine. Why did Relique post? Not to put words in his mouth, but I imagine because he finds George Lucas ridiculous and irritating.

I often see such things from the perspective of the artist. George Lucas doesn't owe you or I a damn thing. The Star Wars films are his art pieces, we don't have a say in what Lucas chooses to do with them, and neither should we. Creating movies, writing novels, painting, and other art forms are not democratic processes.

Our role as fans, as consumers, is to enjoy Lucas' movies . . . or not. We can love, hate, or have mixed feelings about his artistic choices, but we don't own Star Wars and have no rights to it. Even if we have spent our own good money on the films and surrounding merchandising.

I understand the importance of Star Wars and other artistic franchises in the lives of fans. As I stated before, I've been a huge Star Wars fan since I was in elementary school. It's been a big part of my life for most of my life. Just like the Dungeons & Dragons game we all gather here to discuss, and have equally odd arguments over (IMO, of course).