Dancey resigns as GAMA Treasurer

[Nisarg]

I'm not surprised that WotC didn't take part in the ENnies. I'm curious to see if they enter next year, and I'm very curious to see how this hurts the awards. It's very odd to note that ENnie related threads have drawn more interest on RPG.net than here on EN World. If you compare it to other threads on this site in terms of views and unique users taking part in the discussion, it's very interesting.

I am willing to bet, though, that when the average D&D gamer looks at that list of nominees and sees very little that they recognize and nothing from WotC, that they're far more likely to write off the awards than to start hunting down the nominees.

I would say the lack of WoTC would have a decidedly negative effect on any awards for gaming or industry professional association.

Incidentally, WoTC isn't in GAMA. Neither is Steve Jackson Games, or Palladium. I don't recall if White Wolf is or not, but if they aren't that means that NONE of the 4 major gaming companies are in GAMA, supposedly "the" industry association. That's a little bit like having a US TV networks association that doesn't include ABC, CBS, NBC or FOX in its membership.

Nisarg

 

[eyebeams]

I'm sorry, Umbran, but your argument seems full of unprovable (and unlikely) assumptions that ultimately sinks it. You hold out late era TSR as a company that wasn't sunk by poor sales, yet offer no concrete example of why it did sink. You also state that the products were indeed poor, and it's common knowledge (although also an assumption, at the end of the day) that TSR's market share was being rabidly eaten away by the likes of White Wolf and others in the early/mid 90s. You also ignore the statements made by WotC personnel about the demise of TSR based on their due dilligence done when they bought them.

Dude, you can read about what TSR did to hose themselves all over the place. For example, the company paid for the Buck Rogers license on multiple occasions to line the pockets of CEO's family, who owned it. They overspent to attract venture capitalists that never appeared and miscalculated their assets and liabilities as a matter of course. They didn't keep the core books for D&D in print and jumped on misbegotten collectible games.

Despite all of this, TSR still brought in more money than most companies do today. The sales ranks I have from the mid-90s always have TSR products in them. Sure, it was way less than they could have made if they'd planned their lines properly, too, but most companies at the time were not going to be much smarter in that area. Plus, the fiction department remained successful. But that money just wasn't going to do it.

Plus, White Wolf didn't reqally "eat away" at anything. There has always been a tremendous crossover between D&D players and WoD players.

 

[Nikchick]

Incidentally, WoTC isn't in GAMA. Neither is Steve Jackson Games, or Palladium. I don't recall if White Wolf is or not, but if they aren't that means that NONE of the 4 major gaming companies are in GAMA, supposedly "the" industry association. That's a little bit like having a US TV networks association that doesn't include ABC, CBS, NBC or FOX in its membership.

It would be more accurate to say that these companies are not currently in GAMA. And even that is not as damning a statement as you might think, as most do take advantage of GAMA's benefits (by attending or sponsoring the trade show and Origins, by exhibiting at Origins, by participating in the Origins Awards, by sponsoring events through GAMA,) and have, at various times in the past, had principle members (including Steve Jackson and Peter Adkison) seated on the board of directors.

The participation of each unique company in the trade organization ebbs and flows depending on politics, the general health of both the companies and the industry, satisfaction (or dissatisfaction) with the programs and policies, and the individual owners and employees involved. Involved, paying, voting members of the organization are not the only stakeholders served by GAMA's policies and programs; one of GAMA's gifts to the industry at large (and perhaps one of its weaknesses as a representative organization) is that one need not be a member to enjoy many (most?) of the best benefits of the association.

Dancey's position has long been that the organization can't be important if a certain laundry list of companies weren't members and that it must do whatever necessary to attract them. My position for just as long has been that must build a worthwhile organization and provide benefits to joining (as opposed to benefits freely shared with members and non-members alike); do that and many companies, including those considered premium by Dancey, will join and will be happy to do so.

 

[mearls]

Exalted sells quite nicely, but I don't think any other company could pull that off.

That's right - my quote should've been the only *d20* fantasy game aside from D&D. Exalted is an excellent example of a game that is fantasy, but offers significant departures from D&D that make it appealing. AU is in the same boat, though mechanically it's much closer to D&D.

Exalted is a good example, too, because it shows how important it is that game designers remain in touch with their audience. I'm not sure I'd say that Exalted is an anime game, but I think it draws enough cues from it that it's relevant to today's audience. For whatever reason (OK, I have theories but I don't have the time to get into them) that's a big problem with RPG development today.

Merric - I think you're right. I remember writing Quint. Wizard and Rogue in late 2001, early 2002. Rogue may have come out in late 2001, though, and in any case Q. Fighter came before that.

 

[MerricB]

Merric - I think you're right. I remember writing Quint. Wizard and Rogue in late 2001, early 2002. Rogue may have come out in late 2001, though, and in any case Q. Fighter came before that.

I'm terrified at how quickly these past four years have gone! The Q books have seemed to be around 'forever'!

Just for a reminder of the timeline for the Wizards class books:

January 2001: Sword and Fist
May 2001: Defenders of the Faith
July 2001: Tome and Blood
December 2001: Song and Silence
February 2002: Masters of the Wild
November 2003: Complete Warrior
May 2004: Complete Divine
November 2004: Complete Arcane
January 2005: Complete Adventurer

One thing to take into account with the 3E class books from Mongoose and suchlike is that the writers (like yourself, of course!) had to become properly familiar with the rules and options before such a project could be attempted! I'm sure we all well remember the problems with both Sword and Fist and Defenders of the Faith!

I see writing for D&D as a continual learning process - the game develops as more people write for it (and not always to make it more complex, I add!)

Cheers!

 

[Staffan]

What surprises me is that more people don't think that's really weird. Then again, I thought it was really strange that nobody did class books until Mongoose released them in 2002.

Probably at least partially due to taking time to "build up to" class books. Most of the d20 companies started out by "dipping the toes," so to speak, releasing an adventure or two to gauge response. The exception would be Sword & Sorcery, who got a monster book out even before the Monster Manual (albeit a buggy one).

 

[Desdichado]

For whatever reason (OK, I have theories but I don't have the time to get into them) that's a big problem with RPG development today.

For what it's worth, I'd be real interested in those theories. I, for one, am glad this discussion has moved away from Ryan Dancey's alleged activities and on to the problems with the industry as a whole; that's a much more interesting (and relevent, IMO) discussion anyway.

 

[Dogbrain]

Despite all of this, TSR still brought in more money than most companies do today.

Obviously, not enough money, or TSR would still be independent. Big overhead and stupid management mean that big sales mean nothing.

 

[Desdichado]

Dude, you can read about what TSR did to hose themselves all over the place. For example, the company paid for the Buck Rogers license on multiple occasions to line the pockets of CEO's family, who owned it. They overspent to attract venture capitalists that never appeared and miscalculated their assets and liabilities as a matter of course. They didn't keep the core books for D&D in print and jumped on misbegotten collectible games.

True. Good point. But according to all accounts, this mismanagement was coupled with declining sales.

Despite all of this, TSR still brought in more money than most companies do today. The sales ranks I have from the mid-90s always have TSR products in them. Sure, it was way less than they could have made if they'd planned their lines properly, too, but most companies at the time were not going to be much smarter in that area. Plus, the fiction department remained successful. But that money just wasn't going to do it.

That's not really the comparison here, though. I'm talking about sales versus prior years' sales, not sales vs. their competition. And naturally, sales vs costs and overheads looks like a worse picture year over year as well.

Plus, White Wolf didn't reqally "eat away" at anything. There has always been a tremendous crossover between D&D players and WoD players.

I did mention that my source for that was mostly allegorical. But it's still "common knowledge." I'll believe it until I see some more compelling evidence to the contrary.

 

[WizarDru]

True. Good point. But according to all accounts, this mismanagement was coupled with declining sales.

I'm curious, do we have any indication as to the nature of some of those sales? For example, it may be likely that D&D was selling as well as it ever did, but things like Spellfire and Dragon Dice (and their subsequent lack of sales) were as responsible for those declining sales figures for TSR as a whole. I honestly don't know either way...by that time, TSR had become a company I once patronized, more than a decade earlier. I do recall the stacks of Spellfire boxes sitting, gathering dust at my local game shop, and the poor sales of Dragon Dice, as well.