Dancey resigns as GAMA Treasurer

[Nisarg]

This isn't to say that there don't need to be good *introductory* products that ease newbies into the hobby. However, I don't know if I would want a newbie's first experience to be Nobilis or Everway ("This isn't going to end with us toching each other's bottoms, is it?")...

Disclaimer: I LIKE Everway. Contrary to the assumptions of some of my detractors on rpg.net, I actually like a lot of rules-lite games. Over The Edge is one of my favourite games ever. End of disclaimer.

Its interesting that you bring Everway up, because it was actually MEANT to be an "introductory game" for non-roleplayers. On that account it failed miserably.
There has never, in fact, been an introductory game that was "ultra rules-lite" that ended up being successful.

The kids ARE gamist. They want structure (don't all child psychologists say that?).

What they need is a rules system that has set mechanics. Very simple skill resolution, a combat system that is based on a few simple rolls of the dice but that allows for modifiers to situations. Most of all they need a few VERY structured classes and races (that would be the biggest barrier to new roleplayers in a truly rules-lite system). They need identifiable classes, and not too much "freedom" (read: confusion) in having to allocate abilities etc.

In other words: they need D20 with a stripped down combat system, no feats, simplified (ie. rigid) skills allocation, and very archetypal classes. Or, in other words, they need the old D&D basic set. That was, after all, THE most successful introductory roleplaying game ever made.

Nisarg

 

[Arnwyn]

Often I am met with an attitude among current gamers of, "tough crap! I want stuff published to suit ME, the experienced gamer - I can't waste my time with stuff that isn't 'adult-themed' or 'rules-complex' to the degree I want it so as to make it accessible to the darn kids."

And there's nothing wrong with that attitude, either. A consumer has every right to hope and demand products that he/she wants - and nothing else.

Whether that happens, though, is for the market to decide. The neat thing is that the market will sort itself out in the end. If the "accessible to kids" games are in demand, they will be produced. If they're not in demand, then the point is moot.

 

[buzz]

Everway is great, BTW. It's just not about newbies, really.

In other words: they need D20 with a stripped down combat system, no feats, simplified (ie. rigid) skills allocation, and very archetypal classes. Or, in other words, they need the old D&D basic set. That was, after all, THE most successful introductory roleplaying game ever made.

I think this might have more to do with the heyday of the hobby's early years, but I dunno.

Ultimately, I think gamers are born, not made. There is a certain type of person for whom RPGs just "click". The key is to make sure that the hobby gets exposed to as many people as possible so that you make sure to catch the nascent gamer.

 

[Umbran]

If the "accessible to kids" games are in demand, they will be produced. If they're not in demand, then the point is moot.

This isn't precisely true. The free market isn't perfect. There are demands that never get filled.

 

[King of Old School]

Not to be overly pedantic, but...

Underground was not essentially a very "challenging" (as in challenging the norms) game, hell, system-wise it was a rip-off of DC heroes.

You do realize that Underground was published by Mayfair, right? As in the Mayfair Exponential Gaming System (MEGS) that powered DC Heroes, also published by Mayfair?

Or are you just carelessly using the term rip-off? Because in North America it has a rather negative connotation (someone taking something they aren't entitled to) that is definitely undeserved in this instance, but maybe you're one of them furriner types...

KoOS

 

[Arnwyn]

This isn't precisely true. The free market isn't perfect. There are demands that never get filled.

True, of course. But (usually) there are good reasons for that (the biggest being "not profitable" or "too risky"). Whether that's true for "D&D products accessible to kids" is unknown unless heavy market research is done. The only way to know is to conduct such market research, or (as The Sigil is doing) take a risk and bring out such a product.

My point remains though - the consumer has every right to hold the attitudes mentioned by The Sigil in the previous post(s).

 

[Nisarg]

Not to be overly pedantic, but...


You do realize that Underground was published by Mayfair, right? As in the Mayfair Exponential Gaming System (MEGS) that powered DC Heroes, also published by Mayfair?

Or are you just carelessly using the term rip-off? Because in North America it has a rather negative connotation (someone taking something they aren't entitled to) that is definitely undeserved in this instance, but maybe you're one of them furriner types...

KoOS

Ok, "spin-off", then. It wasn't meant to mean anything other than that the system for Underground wasn't even anything original or innovative.
I certainly did NOT mean they were commiting some kind of intellectual theft, just that they had nothing innovative in the game, system-wise.

Nisarg

 

[Gregor Hutton]

A|State came out in February, it's true...but where? It's a little RPG from the UK and I have no idea where it's available or how big a print run it's had.

It's true that Contested Ground Studios is a small company from Scotland, but the game was printed in Canada with fulfillment from Osseum in the US. In the UK distribution is through Esdevium. So the game should be widely available in US, UK and European game stores.

I think it would be very difficult in the current market to print and distribute a game from the UK. (That's not to say that people haven't done this recently ... but it's hard, hard work and with a considerably reduced profit margin. Games like Principia Malefex and Crimson Empire have considerably less name value in the US than a/state.)

However, I'm not foolish enough to think that a game like a/state should be instantly well known. Being nominated for ENnies will hopefully give the game more exposure.

Also, I agree with Ray Winninger's post. (I bought Underground at the time it came out, and it had what would now be considered very strong sales, but expectations were far higher in those days.) There was a considerable slump in sales of RPGs in the mid-nineties as card games filled shop shelves and ate up more of gamers' cash. Mixed with the unrealistic expectations of publishers and inflated overheads it's not surprising in hindsight that so many companies went to the wall or had severe financial problems.

I figure that companies these days run in a far more efficient manner, but it's hard, hard work.

 

[Umbran]

My point remains though - the consumer has every right to hold the attitudes mentioned by The Sigil in the previous post(s).

*nod*. Yes, the consumer has the right to whatever attitude they want. But as a practical matter, some attitudes may be better at getting you what you want than others.

 

[MerricB]

I don't really have any ideas on how to recruit new players on an individual level. But on the publisher level, the market could really use a strong intro product right now. I understand that WotC has a new intro product in the pipeline. I'm very interested in seeing what they're going to do with it.

Here's what I've gathered on it so far:

http://www.3rdedition.org/merricb/basicset.htm

Cheers!