Dancey resigns as GAMA Treasurer

mearls said:
This entire thread demonstrates why a lot of people just stay the heck away from GAMA and ignore the entire mess it has become. GAMA politics are decisive, polarized, pointless, and ultimately harmful to the aims that GAMA is supposed to work towards. In the long run, all both sides have done is render GAMA a disaster zone that few people are willing to deal with. It would take a Herculean effort, one that would require a team that has nothing to do with either side of the feud, to repair it.

Well, only one side had a member that spied on the board.

At this point, I'm not sure anyone who doesn't have an emotional stake in GAMA politics could be bothered to take part in reforming the organization.

I think matters with GAMA are reflective of problems within the whole industry. For the past few years, there seems to be a terminal failure of the imagination when it comes to honestly confronting our common situation and looking at ways to improve it. When company owners can tell you with a straight face that the shrinking number of gamers is not a problem and they'll recoup it all from collectors, you have a problem. You have a catastrophic failure of vision.

A lot of people have an axe to grind with Ryan. Some of them have legitimate issues. A lot of people don't - they're just along for the ride, or for the game industry social cred, or because they hate Ryan for the success of d20. I've found that while many people in the game industry like to build worlds with shades of gray, they live in one that they see as awfully black and white. The truth behind this entire mess, not just this situation (Ryan is obviously in the wrong for accessing the list), rests somewhere in between the two sides' views.

GAMA definitely needs changing. At this point, though, I seriously doubt that this is going to require collective effort. Individuals can't really make things better now, but as we've just seen, they can sure as hell make things worse.

Ryan made a terrible mistake, one that is obviously unethical. I suspect that any lawsuits filed against him will, in the end, consume a lot of time, money, and energy that would be better spent elsewhere. The lawyers I've talked to, some of whom specialize in exactly this kind of stuff (hooray for the contacts an Ivy League education gives you...), wouldn't bother prosecuting this case unless there was a clear case of industrial sabotage, one that involved actual monetary damages. That said, I expect we'll see lawsuits and charges filed - there's too many axes to grind for this to just go away.

Well, we're not talking about a board of idle senior citizens a local library wondering what happened top the coffee fund, here. GAMA moves over a million bucks a year now and is supposed to represent an industry worth as much as half a billion dollars annually.

As for axes to grind . . . well, the hard truth of it is that sometimes, one's suspicions are vindicated.

The current board made a mistake in not immediately calling for Ryan's resignation. Their failure is an obvious blow to their credibility, especially since they promised to bring transparency and accountability to GAMA.

This is one thing that definitely indicates to me that their mandate is gone. It looks like this took what, maybe a month?

Personally, I think GAMA should sell GTS and Origins to Peter Adkison (if he'd take them... I doubt he'd want to run Origins. Maybe the Gamefest people would take it.) and disband itself.

GAMA's done a fine job with the STS and Origins, it seems. Where it eoncounters problems is with its work with gamers and the general public, including the Origins Awards.

Mike Stackpole's work to correct whacko, fringe charges against gaming could continue under a charitable organization that Stackpole or some other volunteers oversee, funded by a trust created with the money raised by the sale of GTS and Origins.

Does anybody still believe that this is still a going concern? This end of things is at best a volunteer operation. This is not to trivialize past concerns, but the industry isn't in any real danger from censors. It's in danger of bleeding away gamers.

Let the ENnies cover d20 awards, and recruit the GPA (an industry organization for small press companies) to create and manage a body of non-d20 RPG awards.

The Origins Awards suffer from severe legacy issues. Ryan Dancey's suggestions to correct them were inane and self-serving, but that doesn't mean they done't need to be changed. Traditional wargaming should be spun off into its own set of awards. It no longer has industry-wide relevancy. In fact, so many categories bear little relationship any more.

RPGs, though, still crossover between D20 and non-D20 groups in a robust enough fashion that there ought to be a common set of awards for both.

The only thing that could truly save GAMA is if it comes under the control of a group that can build bridges between disparate groups and form a consensus. The current administration would have to pull off a dramatic turn around to achieve that. I'm hard pressed to name a group of 5 people who have the willingness, never mind the skills and contacts, to do that.

GAMA can't have a consensus because the industry won't willingly go for that. We've spent 5 years operating under the subtext that everybody with money to burn is a "publisher, where" that there's some sort of secret forumla for success involving corpspeak and the idea that unbelievers are chaff in the way of true growth and where overreaching means that we suffer a constant creative brain drain to better-paying fields. The trouble with GAMA is that it really does represent the games industry, warts and all.
 
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Nisarg said:
Someone also said that Ryan Dancey wants to "favour bigger companies" by wanting the Origins Awards to be "based on sales".

In the first place: The only people who could possibly convince themselves that there is NO connection between sales and quality are people who's products don't sell well.

If a product does sell well in the RPG industry (or any) its because its offering the public something it wants, it has some kind of positive quality.
Second, Ryan was NOT proposing to make the awards based on sales, he just wanted commercial success to be ONE of the qualities for nomination, not the ONLY. People seem determined to try to ignore that fact.
All Ryan was trying to do was drag GAMA kicking and screaming into reality, where the games nominated might actually be a game the GAMING PUBLIC actually plays, rather than obscure unplayable games that the critics like, or self-referential pats on the back by board members in the form of nominating their own games.

Of course, similarly, anyone who thinks that high sales MUST indicate high relative quality probably has too uncritical a view of the free market.

I think using sales as one of the criteria is a singularly bad idea. For one thing, high sales volume is its own reward.

Second, sales may well have more to do with the quality of the company's distribution network and marketing as well as past history with it's customer base than the inherent quality of it's product. I would be willing to bet that WotC's worst quality supplement for Forgotten Realms would outsell the best product Bottled Imp Games would have to offer.

Third, by focusing on quality and specifically ignoring the volume of sales, the Origins awards give all products (theoretically) equal footing regardless of the ability of the publisher to move the sales into wider markets or at cut rate prices. It allows the small publisher to compete as equals on a per product basis.

Now, if there are problems of systematic biases among the nominators, then that is a problem worth addressing. But making sales volume part of the equation for nomination is a bad solution for any type of awards. It may be that quantity has a quality all its own, but I think we can find a number of non-game industry examples of inferior quality products outselling and outcompeting their superiors for a variety of reasons linked to factors exterior to the quality of the product (like marketing and price).
 



billd91 said:
Of course, similarly, anyone who thinks that high sales MUST indicate high relative quality probably has too uncritical a view of the free market.

But no one, not me and not Ryan, are suggesting that. No one. Only the people who have a knee-jerk anti-establishment reaction suggest that we do. What Ryan was proposing was that it be only one factor, not that "the best selling product wins".

I think using sales as one of the criteria is a singularly bad idea. For one thing, high sales volume is its own reward.

Third, by focusing on quality and specifically ignoring the volume of sales, the Origins awards give all products (theoretically) equal footing regardless of the ability of the publisher to move the sales into wider markets or at cut rate prices. It allows the small publisher to compete as equals on a per product basis.

The problem with this point of view, other than the base assumption that sales would be the "only" or even most important factor (it would not, at least not under Ryan's proposal), is twofold:

1. Making a point of being anti-sales almost guarantees that there will be an inherent bias against the best selling games.. it leads to the mentality that "if it sells well it can't be "art" ". So high-selling games actually end up excluded.

2. The basic assumption, combined with point #1 above mean that the awards become a marginalized event, totally out of touch with the gaming public. The average gamer thinks that (let's say) the "Guide to the Outer Planes" (which sold, let's say, 8000 copies) is a prize-worthy book, but instead the judges end up giving it to "le monde de les petites pommes de terre" by R. Bumquist Unknownguy that sold 8 copies and that reluctantly. It means the awards become irrelevant to the gaming public by completely ignoring the gaming public's taste. Which is why we have thousands of posts on this thread saying "why should i care about GAMA"?

Origins has to decide whether it wants to be the Oscars of the gaming world, or if it wants to be the East Hoboken Independant Filmfest of the gaming world. It can't claim to be the foremost gaming awards ceremony if it willfully rejects giving awards to the foremost games, the ones people actually play. It may even be too late, in many ways the ENnies are becoming what Origins always claimed to be and almost never was.

Nisarg
 

eyebeams said:
The Origins Awards suffer from severe legacy issues. Ryan Dancey's suggestions to correct them were inane and self-serving, but that doesn't mean they done't need to be changed. Traditional wargaming should be spun off into its own set of awards. It no longer has industry-wide relevancy. In fact, so many categories bear little relationship any more.


That there are "so many categories" at all is a screaming need to reform things. There are simply FAR TOO MANY categories in the Origins Awards. It's so diluted that it means absolutely nothing, anymore. I say "best wargame product", "best roleplaying game product", "best new product", and that's it. Yeah, so a lot of "good" products won't get awards every year. But this is not some sort of preschool, wherein everybody has to get a ribbon for being "special in your own way". This is a business run by adults, and adults can understand that you can still be darn good without winning an award for it.
 


Originally posted by mearls:

Ryan made a terrible mistake, one that is obviously unethical. I suspect that any lawsuits filed against him will, in the end, consume a lot of time, money, and energy that would be better spent elsewhere. The lawyers I've talked to, some of whom specialize in exactly this kind of stuff (hooray for the contacts an Ivy League education gives you...), wouldn't bother prosecuting this case unless there was a clear case of industrial sabotage, one that involved actual monetary damages. That said, I expect we'll see lawsuits and charges filed - there's too many axes to grind for this to just go away.


I just learned about this, and I find it troubling. I have not followed GAMA or fixGAMA closely. However, I do agree with mearls comments. I believe Ryan Dancey may have lessened the damage to his reputation by confessing to his actions. I would like more of an explanation from Dancey on this. I can understand why those whose privacy was violated are justifiably outraged. However, I think Dancey should explain why he acted as he did. It may help to salvage his reputation.

I have respect for Dancey's actions in helping to purchase TSR. His essay on how TSR failed by not meeting the needs of its customers can serve as a cautionary tale to many businesses. I also think that the OGL has helped the gaming industry, and have purchased many fine products from companies like Green Ronin, Malhavoc Press, and others that might not have existed without the OGL.

Mind you, there is room to criticize Ryan Dancey. The Living City campaign, once the strongest campaign in the RPGA, is supposed to finally come to an official end at Gen Con.

So, I think everyone in the dispute over Dancey's actions should have their say. Whether or not legal charges or lawsuits are warranted is up to the authorities and those who were injured by Dancey's behavior.

However, I think several of the posters here do bring up several good points about GAMA and the gaming industry as a whole. I have started a thread Improving the gaming industry to discuss how gaming companies, organizations, and individual gamers can strengthen our hobby. Perhaps the wisest thing to do with a bad situation, such as this one, is to learn from it and have it serve as a spur to do better in the future.
 

William Ronald said:
I have respect for Dancey's actions in helping to purchase TSR. His essay on how TSR failed by not meeting the needs of its customers can serve as a cautionary tale to many businesses.
Slightly O-T... I've been googling for that article for a while now without success; does anyone have a link to it?
 


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