Dang it! Weapon enchantments that aid tripping?

[Piratecat]

I suspect it's probably fine, given that a/ Improved Trip doesn't work with a 3E whip (unless you're in unarmed strike range, in which case you're provoking AoOs), b/ whips can't be used to make AoOs, and c/ in 3E there's no AoO for Standing from Prone.

Well, my PC is a lasher - so he gets inproved trip with the whip as a class ability. Since there's no AoO from standing up from prone, though, I agree that it doesn't seem to be a balance issue.

Chrono, I thought about the same thing.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Well, my PC is a lasher - so he gets inproved trip with the whip as a class ability.

Strictly, what I said still applies.

You get Improved Trip if you use a whip or whip dagger to perform the trip attack.

On a successful trip, the feat allows you to make a melee attack as if you hadn't used the attack for a trip.

So, if you trip someone with a whip or whip dagger, you get to make a melee attack. But your whip makes ranged attacks, so you don't get to use it for the Improved Trip attack.

But the advantage of being a Lasher in this case is that if you trip someone from five feet away, you don't provoke an AoO... and then you can make your Improved Trip melee attack as an unarmed strike. Kick 'em in the ribs, say.

You might want to see if Sagiro'll let you make the extra attack with the whip, but it's not how it works as written

-Hyp.

 

[Mal Malenkirk]

If you'd like, Piratecat, I could publish the following magic item in the next E.N. Publishing book:
Sorry, I'm just not feelin' it. I've got a PC gnome Shadowdancer/Lasher with a 22 Dexterity and Combat Reflexes. Everyone falls down.

?

I don't get it. All things being equal, doesn't your character get -5 to trip compared to a human (-2 STR and -4 size)? And why combat reflex? The whip doesn't threaten any case so it doesn't get too many AoO.

It can't be that effective.

EDIT : Oh yeah, the lasher can use his whip to threaten, doesn't he?

 

[Piratecat]

I must not be interpreting it strictly.

Hyp, I'm pretty sure that isn't the intent of the lasher. I'd certainly never make that ruling as a DM. I'll have to go grab my copy of S&F to even try and argue verbiage, though.

I wonder if anyone actually runs it this way?

 

[Hypersmurf]

Oh yeah, the lasher can use his whip to threaten, doesn't he?

Within 5 feet.

-Hyp.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Hyp, I'm pretty sure that isn't the intent of the lasher.

Oh, quite possibly.

But I've always felt that one should always be aware of what's actually written before deciding if it should be changed to what feels like it might have been what they maybe meant to say, y'know?

For example, I have no hesitation in changing Protection from Good, Law, and Chaos in 3.5 so they make sense. As written (that is to say, badly), they don't do what they're fairly obviously intended to.

But because I know I've changed them, I can inform people of the fact. As opposed to assuming that everyone will draw the same conclusions about author's intent... because, really, the only person who knows the author's intent for certain is the author.

Actually, it gets a little more complicated with a Lasher. If you Trip someone on an AoO (within 5 feet), you can use the whip for the Improved Trip followup... because the Lasher makes AoOs with a whip within 5' "as if it were a melee weapon", and since the Improved Trip happens as though you had not used the initial attack to trip, the followup attack with the whip is still, technically, an AoO, and therefore, "as if it were a melee weapon", it's a melee attack... and thus legal.

I wonder if anyone actually runs it this way?

Pass. I've never DM'd a Lasher, so I've never had to decide what I'd actually do in game. I've just parsed the rules involved as written.

-Hyp.

 

[RangerWickett]

What's wrong with Protection from Evil?

And the gnome is not mine personally; he's another player's in my game, and he takes advantage of the brokeness that comes from a deep pool of rules. Got himself a feat that lets him use his Dex for offensive trip attempts too (not just to resist), and wheedled his way into being able to make AoOs at a range of 15 ft. because I had an NPC lasher doing that in a previous campaign.

Mind you, the previous lasher didn't have the version of Improved Trip that gives you a +4 bonus, so her trip bonus was only +1 (but at range, how nifty!). Whereas the gnome has a +6 bonus to trips (and at range, how broken!). I let him get away with it because, well, he does like, d4+1 damage per hit, and he's more of a nuisance than a threat, as gnomes are meant to be. He just runs in, knocks all the mooks down, and lets the other PCs charge in to deal with the big bads.

I don't intend to let the rules be used quite that way in the future, but I feel somewhat guilty. I mean, sure, small folks should logically get the -4 penalty to trip attempts, but there's no balance reason to penalize them. It's not like they get a +4 bonus to some other attack option.

Why isn't there a 3.5 Lasher?

 

[RangerWickett]

Actually, Smurf & Pkitty, that NPC I mentioned used a whip and rapier together so that after tripping someone she could 5-ft. step over and deliver a stab with her rapier.

 

[Hypersmurf]

What's wrong with Protection from Evil?

Absolutely nothing.

It's Protection from Good, Law, and Chaos there's a problem with.

Lesse, I just typed it all out last night... I'll cut'n'paste from the other thread:

Originally posted by Hypersmurf
They screwed up when they didn't bother to spell out PfG, PfC, and PfL in full.

The intent, presumably, was that Protection from Law works exactly like Protection from Evil, except replacing all instances of "evil" with "lawful" and all instances of "good" with "chaotic".

That's not what they wrote, though.

Protection from Evil: Third, the spell prevents bodily contact by summoned creatures. This causes the natural weapon attacks of such creatures to fail and the creatures to recoil if such attacks require touching the warded creature. Good summoned creatures are immune to this effect.

Protection from Good: This spell functions like protection from evil, except that the deflection and resistance bonuses apply to attacks from good creatures, and good summoned creatures cannot touch the subject.

Protection from Law: This spell functions like protection from evil, except that the deflection and resistance bonuses apply to attacks from lawful creatures, and lawful summoned creatures cannot touch the subject.

Protection from Chaos: This spell functions like protection from evil, except that the deflection and resistance bonuses apply to attacks from chaotic creatures, and chaotic summoned creatures cannot touch the subject.

-----

So for Protection from Evil: All summoned creatures are warded, but Good creatures are immune to this effect.

Expected result: All but Good are warded.
Actual result: All but Good are warded.

For Protection from Good: As Protection from Evil (All summoned creatures are warded, but Good creatures are immune to this effect), except that Good summoned creatures cannot touch the subject.

Expected result: All but Evil are warded.
Actual result: All are warded.

For Protection from Law: As Protection from Evil (All summoned creatures are warded, but Good creatures are immune to this effect), except that Lawful summoned creatures cannot touch the subject.

Expected result: All but Chaotic are warded.
Actual result: All but Good are warded.

For Protection from Chaos: As Protection from Evil (All summoned creatures are warded, but Good creatures are immune to this effect), except that Chaotic summoned creatures cannot touch the subject.

Expected result: All but Lawful are warded.
Actual result: All but Good are warded.

-----

Badly written. Protection from Good is more powerful than the other three spells, and PfL and PfC don't act as expected.

Got himself a feat that lets him use his Dex for offensive trip attempts too (not just to resist), and wheedled his way into being able to make AoOs at a range of 15 ft. because I had an NPC lasher doing that in a previous campaign.

Heh. I seem to remember you telling us about that before

Actually, Smurf & Pkitty, that NPC I mentioned used a whip and rapier together so that after tripping someone she could 5-ft. step over and deliver a stab with her rapier.

Presumably not with her Improved Trip attack, though?

-Hyp.

 

[RangerWickett]

Yes, with the Improved Trip attack. Take full attack with the good hand (whip), making three normal attacks then a trip, and then take your 5-ft. step and get your free bonus attack with the rapier.