Daring Outlaw...A Too Powerful?

[DM_Matt]

I wonder how a Daring Warrior & Daring Outlaw would stack up with Fighter 4/Rogue 3/Swashbuckler 13

That's effectively 17 levels of Swashbuckler (BAB +19, +3 Dodge), 16 Rogue (+8d6 Sneak Attack, Evasion) and 17 Fighter (9 feats, Weapon Spec, Greater WF, GWS).

Probably be better to go Rogue 4, Fighter 4 and Swashbuckler 12.

Daring Warrior does not give you fighter bonus feats. It only gives you the ability to qualify for fighter-only feats. The author intended it to give those feats, but in the end its not that way. A feat should never grant you several more feats. Its like wishing for more wishes.

 

[Slaved]

In this case it is more like using wish to gain a few limited wishes, or an effect that would take several limited wishes to accomplish.

 

[DM_Matt]

In this case it is more like using wish to gain a few limited wishes, or an effect that would take several limited wishes to accomplish.

You can't do that either.

 

[Slaved]

You can't do that either.

You cannot get an effect with a wish that would take several castings of limited wish?

I disagree.

An easy example would be a mass spell versus its non mass version.

 

[DM_Matt]

You cannot get an effect with a wish that would take several castings of limited wish?

I disagree.

An easy example would be a mass spell versus its non mass version.

Very, very specialized case and only because the target-adding is done through different-named spells rather than metamagic. Besides, the difference between wish and limited wish is far more significant than feats and fighter bonus feats for a character that fights.

In many cases, its not a hinderance at all. It is only a limitation if he would have wanted as many non-fighter feats as he has feats from levels, had he not taken this feat. He would have to want so many non-fighter feats that he would have filled every single one of his slots with them and could not spare the one feat to buy a ton of fighter feats. How many Swashbuckler/Fighters can say that?

 

[Slaved]

So now you are saying that it is not impossible. Progress!

With the current case in mind though the character is spending a more versitile feat and multiclassing to gain the benefits of multiple feats from a smaller list. If sneak attack was gained through feats, and that the rogue at every level got a bonus sneak attack feat, we could make a similar direct comparison with trading one feat for several.

If we assume that fighter feats are class abilities, which seems like a safe assumption, then what is the difference between spending a general feat to get one set of class abilities versus another? As long as you limit it properly, which might be tricky but there are many feat examples that stack two classes levels in some way, it should be fine.

Being forced to take 4 levels of fighter plus other restrictions is a pretty big cost already.

 

[DM_Matt]

So now you are saying that it is not impossible. Progress!

With the current case in mind though the character is spending a more versitile feat and multiclassing to gain the benefits of multiple feats from a smaller list. If sneak attack was gained through feats, and that the rogue at every level got a bonus sneak attack feat, we could make a similar direct comparison with trading one feat for several.

If we assume that fighter feats are class abilities, which seems like a safe assumption, then what is the difference between spending a general feat to get one set of class abilities versus another? As long as you limit it properly, which might be tricky but there are many feat examples that stack two classes levels in some way, it should be fine.

Being forced to take 4 levels of fighter plus other restrictions is a pretty big cost already.

This is the inverse of the Foucaultian Lyricist (or whatver its real name is...this is what i choose to call it). Instead of requiring a rediculously bad setup to finally catch up with some rediculously nice stuff, it requires you do do some sensable stuff in order to get a big power boost thats amazing for anyone with the kind of character. For a swordsman character, fighter levels, especially exactly four of them, is just not a major "cost," especially compared to the insane benefits he eventually gets. Its not like he's a theurge taking non-stacking spellcasting clssses for several elvels. While the feat gives you a number of slightly limited-selection feats, it is only not worth it for an enormously bizarre fighting character who needs so many non-fighter feats that its better to not take this one that gives them a whole bunch of fighter feats. And that doesnt even incorporate the extra swashbuckler abilities.

Its not that every fighting character shouild take this feat, but that in almost every case it is crazy over the top good to do a Swash3/Fighter4/SwashX or whatever if this is the type of character you are going for.

Daring Outlaw: Its Part of a Complete Munchkin With A Rapier!