Dark Knowledge: Are medium and large elementals different races?

[Deset Gled]

I think they're actually different subspecies of the species elf. (They are both listed as elf, and the can interbreed, though so can elves and humans).

Good point. Subspiecies is probably more accurate from a biological standpoint.

Can a huge Elemental breed with a small Elemental, though? Can any elementals breed, for that matter?

 

[Tequila Sunrise]

Note that Elementals do not "grow up" into larger Elementals; an advanced Large Water Elemental is still a Large Water Elemental, just with 15 HD instead of 8.

Really? Did some "official" source say this? I always figured that a small elemental was a sort of 'baby' elemental, while the elder elemental is well, the elder.

 

[werk]

I must play devil's advocate here: So, would an air elemental and a djinni be the same race because their types are both Elemental (air, extraplanar)?

I did the same thing looking at mephits and elementals...now the the problem I see is mephits and djinn are the same race?

Djinni
Size/Type: Large Outsider (Air, Extraplanar)

Air Mephit
Size/Type: Small Outsider (Air, Extraplanar)


Seems unlikely...

Uh oh!

Arrowhawk
Size/Type: Small Outsider (Air, Extraplanar)


So what is a good way to determine if creatures are the same race? DM fiat?

 

[Deset Gled]

Really? Did some "official" source say this? I always figured that a small elemental was a sort of 'baby' elemental, while the elder elemental is well, the elder.

It's based off of the "Advancement" part of an Elementals stat block. In the example given, a Large Elemental has 8 HD, and is advanceable from 9 to 15 HD, but remains Large sized (not Huge).

Also, per the SRD:

The monster entry usually describes only the most commonly encountered version of a creature. The advancement line shows how tough a creature can get, in terms of extra Hit Dice. (This is not an absolute limit, but exceptions are extremely rare.) Often, intelligent creatures advance by gaining a level in a character class instead of just gaining a new Hit Die.

Emphasis mine. If it's "extrememly rare" for a Small Elemental to advance beyond 3HD, it would be nigh impossible to advance one to the 24HD an Elder Elemental has.

 

[Tequila Sunrise]

I see where you're coming from. I think that elementals are one of the exceptions to the rule though, because of the fact that the biggest of them are called Elders. Meh, it doesn't make a difference anyway; a DM could call them Super Huge for all that it matters. Any DM is going to make their own decision based on personal preference, so whatever.

 

[DogBackward]

I must play devil's advocate here: So, would an air elemental and a djinni be the same race because their types are both Elemental (air, extraplanar)?

I did the same thing looking at mephits and elementals...now the the problem I see is mephits and djinn are the same race?

Arrowhawks, djinni and air elementals are different "races". Sure, they have the same subtypes, but they have different actual names. A good way to determine if two creatures are the same race is if they have the same name, minus descriptors for things such as size and the like. Djinni =/= air elemental. Small air elemental = large air elemental, only less big.

It's based off of the "Advancement" part of an Elementals stat block. In the example given, a Large Elemental has 8 HD, and is advanceable from 9 to 15 HD, but remains Large sized (not Huge).

Admittedly, there are no real concrete rules for this, but look at it this way. The small elemental has 2HD, and can advance up to 3HD. Then, coincidentally, the medium elemental picks up at 4HD. The medium can then advance up to 7HD, before the large elemental picks up at 8HD... and all the elementals (the "true" elementals) continue this trend, the next in size picking up the HD total where the previous advancement left off. Like I said, it's not a straight out rule, but it seems pretty obvious that elementals were meant to "grow" as they advance in HD.

As for the part in the MM that says "extremely rare"... it would've been a little wierd to say "extremely rare... y'know, except for elementals". And the DnD books are well known for forgetting important clarifications, especially when they're (usually) not really that important in most games.

 

[crazy_monkey1956]

I know Savage Species is a somewhat maligned resource but, the precedent set in that book for elementals is that each size is a part of the advancement of the creature, at least up to large.

Also, I would look at it in terms of "racial traits." If a variety of creatures have the same basic traits, just different sizes and more HD, then it would seem they are the same race.

 

[Alzrius]

It's based off of the "Advancement" part of an Elementals stat block. In the example given, a Large Elemental has 8 HD, and is advanceable from 9 to 15 HD, but remains Large sized (not Huge).

It's Huge as soon as it gets that 16th Hit Die, at which point it'd have the same statistics as a "normal" Huge Elemental; to me, that's a pretty clear indication that elementals grow in power over time, getting larger and stronger as they do (hence why the last kinds are called "elders").

I'm not sure if this would apply to Elemental Monoliths or Primal Elementals, though.

 

[blargney the second]

The problem lies mostly in the squidgy wording of the Dark Knowledge ability. "Race" is not a defined game term, as far as I know.

I ended up ruling that medium & large water elementals are the same race, but it still needed to be thought through before assuming they were.
-blarg

 

[DreamChaser]

It's Huge as soon as it gets that 16th Hit Die, at which point it'd have the same statistics as a "normal" Large Elemental; to me, that's a pretty clear indication that elementals grow in power over time, getting larger and stronger as they do (hence why the last kinds are called "elders").

I'm not sure if this would apply to Elemental Monoliths or Primal Elementals, though.

But you are right on; if you read the whole of the elemental descriptions for water elemental you find this clear pattern:

Small Water Elemental - 2 HD - Advances up to 3 HD (Small)
Medium Water Elemental - 4 HD - Advances to 7 HD (Medium)
Large Water Elemental - 8 HD - Advances to 15 HD (Large)
Huge Water Elemental - 16 HD - Advances to 20 HD (Huge)
Greater Huge Water Elemental - 21 HD - Advances to 23 HD (Huge)
Elder Water Elemental - 24 HD - Advances to 48 HD (Huge)

There is a clear correlation between the size of the elemental and its power level; as an elemental grows in power, it grows in size (at least to huge).

Either gaining 4 HD causes an elemental to suddenly metamorphos into a new creature / race

OR

the simpler more elegant explanation, one creature (Water Elemental) can be found as the least variety of the creature (Small) with 2 or 3 HD to the greatest (Elder) at 24 or more HD.

My vote = one "race"

Of course it doesn't matter. I'm not your DM.

DC