D&D 4E Dark Sun Conversion to 4E

[frankthedm]

One possible way to do Defiling is to treat it as an implement. For example:

Defile

The vegetation at your feet turns to ash as you use its life force to focus your magic.

If using Defile as your implement, it acts as a magical implement equal to your level. When you cast a spell the square(s) you are standing on is considered defiled. If casting a when standing on an already defiled square all non-defiled adjacent squares become defiled.

This makes Defiling an easy way (a free equal level magical implement) without making it much more powerful than Preserving (the Defiler only has an additional secondary or wondrous item/ability).

Yes, that's is darn brilliant for the 'free implement' idea. Might suggest slightly larger areas of defilement though.

 

[breschau]

A quick fix to the radius would be:

spell level X terrain type = radius in yards

Forest = /10 (min 1 yard).
Verdant belts = /5 (min 1 yard).
Scrub plains = /2 (min 1 yard).
All other terrain types = x1 yard.

This uses the chart found in the original box, but it's not quite the same numbers for obvious reasons. The multiplier follows the chart, basically.

 

[Ultimatecalibur]

Thanks guys. You're making me blush.

A quick fix to the radius would be:

spell level X terrain type = radius in yards

Forest = /10 (min 1 yard).
Verdant belts = /5 (min 1 yard).
Scrub plains = /2 (min 1 yard).
All other terrain types = x1 yard.

This uses the chart found in the original box, but it's not quite the same numbers for obvious reasons. The multiplier follows the chart, basically.

Thanks for posting this it gave me some more ideas on how to write it out in 4e style.

at will: 1 square defiled (25 square feet; about a 1 yard circle)
per encounter: burst 2 defiled (625 square feet; about a 5 yard circle)
per day: burst 4 defiled (2025 square feet; a 15 yard circle)
rituals: cost reduction based on size of area defiled

Forest: -4 radius on burst (minimum 1 square)
Verdant belts: -2 radius on burst (minimum 1 square)
Scrub plains: -1 radius on burst (minimum 1 square)

Now I just need to figure out how to write out the "scratching an open wound" effect.

Another thought: What combat applicable effects should being defiled have on the terrain?

 

[frankthedm]

Now I just need to figure out how to write out the "scratching an open wound" effect.

Add 1 to the defilement burst maybe?

For 3e i typed this up [sblock]

Defiling radius* by spell level
Plants	0th	1st	2nd	3rd	4th	5th	6th	7th	8th	9th
Barren	20'	30'	40'	50'	60'	65'	70'	80'	85'	90'
Sparse	5'	10'	10'	10'	15'	15'	15'	15'	20'	20'
Lush	S	5'	5'	5'	10'	10'	10'	10'	10'	10'
Forest	S	S	S	5'	5'	5'	5'	5'	10'	10'
S: Only one square of the caster's space is defiled
*Each additional spell in that area adds 5' to the radius of the highest level defiling spell.

And here is a quick pick showing what those radii look like.

[/sblock]

Another thought: What combat applicable effects should being defiled have on the terrain?

The black and grey ash blows away easily so maybe kicking up a dust cloud as a move action could be possible? But on the most part defiling eliminates plant terrain and has no effect otherwise.

 

[vagabundo]

Lots of Great Stuff .

I'll probably make preserving/defiling mechanics a part of the Arcane power source description for DS, that way if any new arcane classes were introduced (a la Warlock) they could defile or preserve.

Also preserve as default without penalties would be easier to manage I think.

 

[Khaalis]

On Defiling / Preserving as Implements:

Overall I think we’re on the right path but wrong mechanic.

From our 4E knowledge:
• “Wizard implements now provide your character with a reason to care about a signature weapon in much the same way that the fighter cares about a signature sword. We think it's a good thing. Many other implements have been suggested, including things such as mask, dagger, and (of course) tome."
• "Staffs are for rays and cones, wands for long distance control, while orb stands for blasts, terrain control, and retributive and perception based effects." This was true at the time it was written, and as with a few other small details, it's changed since then. Spells are not based on the implements you use to cast them. Wizards still choose a primary implement (and that choice is a meaningful one), but you can cast any spell through any implement with equal effectiveness.”

Overall, the implement is a physical tool that allows you to focus or gain benefits with a certain classification of spell types (rays, blasts, etc.).


However, where I think we should focus is on Orders and Traditions.
• "You can add your own {…} disciplines/traditions to the mix. Doing so takes some work, but it's not a massive undertaking."
• "...traditions are not groupings (fluffy or otherwise) of spells/spell schools/etc... I can see how someone could read the preview article and make the reasonable speculation that the traditions we mention are analogous to spell schools or domains. While that's a decent guess, and it fits the available data, it's not a correct guess."
• "[Orders] are not really specializations in the sense of 3rd Edition specialist wizards; choosing one doesn't make the spells belonging to another unavailable to you. Basically they're a mechanism by which we answer the question, ‘How did your wizard learn magic? Was he trained in a magical academy, tutored by a single mentor, etc., etc." So each order provides a subset a spells your character is *best* at, but doesn't replace the notion of spell school from previous editions."

Overall I think that these suite the concepts of Defiling and Preserving the best. Granted we can’t design anything specific until we see the actual rules for Disciplines/Traditions/Orders, but I think this will be the way to go.

 

[med stud]

A radical step could be to move defiling and preserving into fluff- territory. Most PC wizards in Dark Sun tend to be preservers while most defilers are NPCs.

Why would someone then chose to be a defiler if there is no mechanical benefit? Well, the ones with the access to the rules (= the players) don't. NPCs are defilers because it's the only way they know. Everyone can't be a wizard, and of those who can be wizards, not everyone can be a preserver.

In 2E I think it's alright to hit the wizards hard with different drawbacks since they were so strong. Since 4e is aiming to balance the classes, I feel leery about adding drawbacks to an already balanced class (assuming WotC has done it's job). It also feels bad to provide a mechanically suboptimal wizard- variant for the players.

 

[vagabundo]

On Defiling / Preserving as Implements:

Overall I think we’re on the right path but wrong mechanic.

<snip>
Overall I think that these suite the concepts of Defiling and Preserving the best. Granted we can’t design anything specific until we see the actual rules for Disciplines/Traditions/Orders, but I think this will be the way to go.

I wonder if they are still in the rules, we havent heard about them in a long long time.

In 2E I think it's alright to hit the wizards hard with different drawbacks since they were so strong. Since 4e is aiming to balance the classes, I feel leery about adding drawbacks to an already balanced class (assuming WotC has done it's job). It also feels bad to provide a mechanically suboptimal wizard- variant for the players.

I've been thinking about this too, but I am interested in the PC Arcane casters being tempted by defiling, that will only happen if there is a mechanical benefit.

If it does not bother you then it would be simpler to have as fluff or as mechanics for the NPC only. It could always be introduced at a later stage for PCs anyway.

 

[Danzauker]

One possible way to do Defiling is to treat it as an implement. For example:

Defile

The vegetation at your feet turns to ash as you use its life force to focus your magic.

If using Defile as your implement, it acts as a magical implement equal to your level. When you cast a spell the square(s) you are standing on is considered defiled. If casting a when standing on an already defiled square all non-defiled adjacent squares become defiled.

This makes Defiling an easy way (a free equal level magical implement) without making it much more powerful than Preserving (the Defiler only has an additional secondary or wondrous item/ability).

Funny, I was thinking almost the same thing last night.

I was considering how to "implement implements" (pardon the pun) in Dark Sun 4e, since they seem to be an important part of the new magic system.

Then I realized a quick and dirty way of setting apart defilers from preservers would be to make defiling itself an implement.

This accomplishes exactly my objectives: make defiling available to everyone, with a distinct and immediate benefit, since implements seem to make casting better and more powerful.

And also opens up some flavour ideas: preservers learn how to tap the energy of the land gently, but they need some artificial components in order to do it. In exchange of this, well, when you someone waving an obsidian orb you're sure his status as a wizard is pretty much exposed.

Sure, this contradicts some of the source material, but, hey, half of a new ruleset, beginning from the nerfing of vancian casting, contradicts old source materiale, so I can live with implements popping out from nowhere in Dark Sun.

So, I support this idea, at least until we find something better. I'd still prefer something that recharges spent powers or make them usable without expending them, but until I have a better grasp of the rules this seems the best option so far.

 

[Ultimatecalibur]

However, where I think we should focus is on Orders and Traditions.
• "You can add your own {…} disciplines/traditions to the mix. Doing so takes some work, but it's not a massive undertaking."
• "...traditions are not groupings (fluffy or otherwise) of spells/spell schools/etc... I can see how someone could read the preview article and make the reasonable speculation that the traditions we mention are analogous to spell schools or domains. While that's a decent guess, and it fits the available data, it's not a correct guess."
• "[Orders] are not really specializations in the sense of 3rd Edition specialist wizards; choosing one doesn't make the spells belonging to another unavailable to you. Basically they're a mechanism by which we answer the question, ‘How did your wizard learn magic? Was he trained in a magical academy, tutored by a single mentor, etc., etc." So each order provides a subset a spells your character is *best* at, but doesn't replace the notion of spell school from previous editions."

Overall I think that these suite the concepts of Defiling and Preserving the best. Granted we can’t design anything specific until we see the actual rules for Disciplines/Traditions/Orders, but I think this will be the way to go.

That info is a bit out of date. WotC_Miko mentioned a few weeks ago that Golden Wyvern was nowhere in the PHB and a Feat that called Burning Blizzard (which modifies Acid and Ice spells) showed up implying that Emerald Frost tradition had been tossed as well. So based on those two pieces of evidence it sounds like they dropped Traditions.