D&D 4E Dark Sun Conversion to 4E

[med stud]

I've been thinking about this too, but I am interested in the PC Arcane casters being tempted by defiling, that will only happen if there is a mechanical benefit.

If it does not bother you then it would be simpler to have as fluff or as mechanics for the NPC only. It could always be introduced at a later stage for PCs anyway.

I agree with you about PCs being tempted. I have read the suggestions in this thread and I have thought about it, but I can't come up with a rule I really like. The big problem IMO is that 2e D&D had such a nice tool for giving defilers greater power, that is the experience chart. It is really hard to create something similiar in 3e (I have tried) and 4e seems to have the same problem.

My image of preserving is that is a way you learn to do magic. It's not that it's more difficult per spell you cast, it's that it's more difficult to master spells the way a preserver masters them. In 3e you couldn't mess about with experience charts, the only thing worse than a 3e wizard was a 3e wizard that advances faster than everyone else.

4e presents an entirely different problem. Now that arcane magic isn't inherently more or less powerful than what the other classes get, nerfing or boosting wizards could be a real headache.

That's why I arrive at the conclusion that defilers are hosed compared to preservers. There is no mechanical benefit being a defiler, except if you are fighting plants, but that doesn't have to matter since defilers will be NPCs anyway. The NPCs are mine, I don't care if they are hosed, the players don't care, therefore there isn't a problem.

 

[vagabundo]

That's why I arrive at the conclusion that defilers are hosed compared to preservers. There is no mechanical benefit being a defiler, except if you are fighting plants, but that doesn't have to matter since defilers will be NPCs anyway. The NPCs are mine, I don't care if they are hosed, the players don't care, therefore there isn't a problem.

You could just have the NPC casters at a higher level than the PCs to simulate the 2e advancement. Also give the defilers' wizard levels rather than using the NPC creation rules. Sounds good if your PCs arn't going to defile, probably easier in the long run.

 

[arscott]

This does not fit well with the setting fluff.

Defiling, in Dark Sun novels and supplements WAS tempting.

And even skilled preservers, like Sadira, had to revert to defiling when they really needed it. She was even hunted by her master that tried to kill her before she became a defiler.

I disagree. Defiling as poor engineering fits quite well with the setting fluff, as it was presented in the original boxed set. The Boxed set contains no mechanic allowing for, nor fluff suggesting, a means by which preservers can defile. Nor are a defiler's spells, fluff-wise or crunch-wise, depicted as being inherently more powerful. The difference exists only in the ease at which power is gained (and of course, the environmental destruction and accompanying social stigma).

The Idea of preservers being able to defile was introduced in the novels. I was under the impression that it was never reflected in the setting supplements, but I only have the first few, so I can't back that up. Given that the mood of these boards leans towards "Stick with the original box, and only include stuff from the (generally crappy) supplemental material when it's particularly cool", I think the "Poor Engineering" model remains quite valid.

And personally, I think it fits better with the setting's ecological themes.

 

[Pale Jackal]

I agree with you about PCs being tempted. I have read the suggestions in this thread and I have thought about it, but I can't come up with a rule I really like.

I'm in a similar situation. I have a variety of conflicting desires (whether defilers should be able to use preserving magic at a penalty, whether preservers should be able to defile, how to avoid a 'preserver' who is mechanically a defiler but doesn't defile, how to make preservers inferior to defilers yet give them an incentive to defile, if preservers should even be capable of defiling), so I'm not sure what I'd do, I'm also conflicted about the "defiling as poor engineering" versus "defiling as power" points of view. Though I suppose "defiling as power" feels like it allows for "defiling as poor engineering" plus the whole "power at any cost" shtick.

Finally, relegating defilers to NPC status seems like it would work most of the time.

 

[Danzauker]

I disagree. Defiling as poor engineering fits quite well with the setting fluff, as it was presented in the original boxed set. The Boxed set contains no mechanic allowing for, nor fluff suggesting, a means by which preservers can defile. Nor are a defiler's spells, fluff-wise or crunch-wise, depicted as being inherently more powerful. The difference exists only in the ease at which power is gained (and of course, the environmental destruction and accompanying social stigma).

The Idea of preservers being able to defile was introduced in the novels. I was under the impression that it was never reflected in the setting supplements, but I only have the first few, so I can't back that up. Given that the mood of these boards leans towards "Stick with the original box, and only include stuff from the (generally crappy) supplemental material when it's particularly cool", I think the "Poor Engineering" model remains quite valid.

And personally, I think it fits better with the setting's ecological themes.

Well, the novels and the setting are in the case of Dark Sun quite tightly bound, much more than other settings.

After all, the very first adventures are "side treks" of the first novels. That's a pity, IMHO, because the setting could never be successfully explored this way.

Just consider the fact that except for the novels and some adventure, no good and complete description of the sorcerer-kings has been done (and even there they didn't go much deep). Compare that with the detail they put in the domain lords of Ravenloft.

But I'm digressing, sorry.

Anyway, in later supplements they expanded a lot on the topic of magic, defiling and deserving.

Preservers and Defilers gives rules for corruption of preservers, atonement and conversion of defilers. The revised boxed set gives rules for defiling that derive the effective caster level of defiling from the fertility of the ggound the caster stands on.

Personally, when I talk of "adhering to the original box" I'm thinking more of a timeline / general feeling than anything else, but I have no problem in adding later material if it's good and doesn't change the premises of a pre Kalak's fall setting.

For example, no Cerulean Storm and the Dragon still alive is a must, but I see no problems in adding pterrans and aarakokras or Sun Clerics, if one wishes.

The original boxed set was good but not perfect. There are some things that later products expanded in a way I like. For example, in the original boxed set it states that the Veiled Alliance admits both preservers and defilers. In later stuff it seems that only preservers will be accepted, which is what most people like.

 

[med stud]

I'm very conservative when it comes to Dark Sun. I think the original box and the first supplements are good, but when the sorcerer kings started dying, the Dragon was explained and thri- kreen and tohr-kreen and all sorts of strange X-kreens started invading I was just sad of seeing an excellent campaign setting being butchered like that.

My vision for a Dark Sun- campaign is that maybe, maybe a sorcerer king gets overthrown at the end of it. The Dragon is a force majeur and a mystery; if the PCs come in contact with the Dragon at all, it will be in it's wake, coming upon some village were all humans, livestock and plants are turned to ash or they will see the Dragon flying overhead. Things like that.

 

[vagabundo]

Well, the novels and the setting are in the case of Dark Sun quite tightly bound, much more than other settings.

After all, the very first adventures are "side treks" of the first novels. That's a pity, IMHO, because the setting could never be successfully explored this way.

I could not understand this at first. I finally got the boxed set some time after it had officially died. I hunted for modules that did not destroy the setting in the boxed set, I could not understand that the first module printed started to unravel the setting.

The original boxed set was good but not perfect. There are some things that later products expanded in a way I like. For example, in the original boxed set it states that the Veiled Alliance admits both preservers and defilers. In later stuff it seems that only preservers will be accepted, which is what most people like.

I couldnt find that in the original, here is what I have from the original:

Second, all Veiled Alliances require that their
members be Preservers and not Defilers. The reason for this is practical, not idealistic: even a few mages will decimate a small area if they do not practice their art responsibly. Any violation of this principle always results in the banishment (and subsequent execution) of the Defiler.

 

[Silverblade The Ench]

med Stud,
I agree, I HATE the novels and 2nd boxed set etc.
Totally trashed a superb setting.
It's like in a couple of years, half the major NPcs of the Realms get permanently ganked, gah.

Refuse tO have anything to do with that, or the stupid "Official" history...blue age, halfling spaceships...oh nuts!

I juSt say it was due to the mind flayers, who wanted to put out the Sun, and thus spread psionics, so they could harvest psi power from ignorant noob races (like humans ). Psionics lead to the development of defiling, which triggered massive wars as the defilers wiped out the "good guys" as they are more powerful...but they destoryed the land....and then, the mind flayers tried to put the Sun out.

They screwed up, Sun went Nova, and the gods barely managed to stop it, catastrophy destroyed the "athasian Astral Plane" and the gods, thus messing up planar connections etc etc. World got wrecked too, massive earthquakes destoryed much of the Underdark (and the mind flayers got ganked by that and feedback...though, who knows...they may have survived)

So-Uts are left over bio-weapons from the wars, designed as scorched earth wepaons, destorying metal and buildings.
Sorceror Kings are surviving defiler tyrants, who've literally become demi-god like beings and are *way* beyond the power of any PC to kill.

Surviving creatures are grealty more dangerous, due to Darwinian evolution gone mad, aided by radiation (both solar and literal, some very dirty nukes were left off, by foolish psion/defilers, as they had learned of many obscure sciences due to their enhanced brains and planar learning, great fun having characters find a glass-covered crater, muhaha!), the very nature of reality being twisted by excess powers, and the mad experimentations of war mad wizards etc...


Works for me!

 

[breschau]

Anyone else notice the pseudo thri-kreen in the art preview?

Here

 

[Kordeth]

Anyone else notice the pseudo thri-kreen in the art preview?

Here

It's an ice devil (gelugon), and they've pretty much always looked like that.