D&D 4E Dark Sun Conversion to 4E

[Dausuul]

My take on how I feel defilers should work.

Arcane Power Source Feature

Defile
Encounter*Free Action
Special: Must be used in conjunction with an Arcane Power
Effect: The Arcane Power can be used as a Minor Action.
Secondary Effect
Burst(Spell Level)
Effect: Vegetation in the burst is destroyed. Living Vegetation is granted a save to resist or take 2d4 damage.


I think that this encompasses the fluff regarding defilers being able to cast spells quicker it also covers the increase in spell level, it is very tempting to use because you could with action points cast 3 spells in a round and you have an additional effect against sentient plants. On top of that it takes into account the increased Arcane power by basing the burst off the Power level.

I also think that possibly at Paragon level a stun effect for powers of Paragon level should be included for non-vegetation and once you get to epic you should have the damage to vegetation increase to 3d4 and animals take 2d4 to power epic level powers.

I don't think it is game breaking look at dwarves being able to use minor actions for second wind instead of standard.

Being able to use any wizard power as a minor action is much more powerful than being able to use second wind as a minor action. And the stun effect makes it even worse. Sure, it hits your allies too, but what do you care? If your friends are stunned, and your enemies are stunned, but you yourself are not stunned, it's a big net gain for your team.

(And that's if you're talking about 4E-style stunning, where it just limits your actions a bit. If you mean 3E-style stunning, then defiling becomes pure and total Win.)

If you want a good way to implement defiling messing up nearby creatures, in a way that's almost purely detrimental to the PCs, here's a thought: Defiling magic takes away healing surges. Since PCs need healing surges far more than NPCs do, the PCs take much more pain from this.

 

[Spatula]

If you want a good way to implement defiling messing up nearby creatures, in a way that's almost purely detrimental to the PCs, here's a thought: Defiling magic takes away healing surges. Since PCs need healing surges far more than NPCs do, the PCs take much more pain from this.

Ooh, nasty. That's an interesting idea.

 

[Kirnon_Bhale]

Being able to use any wizard power as a minor action is much more powerful than being able to use second wind as a minor action. And the stun effect makes it even worse. Sure, it hits your allies too, but what do you care? If your friends are stunned, and your enemies are stunned, but you yourself are not stunned, it's a big net gain for your team.

(And that's if you're talking about 4E-style stunning, where it just limits your actions a bit. If you mean 3E-style stunning, then defiling becomes pure and total Win.)

If you want a good way to implement defiling messing up nearby creatures, in a way that's almost purely detrimental to the PCs, here's a thought: Defiling magic takes away healing surges. Since PCs need healing surges far more than NPCs do, the PCs take much more pain from this.

I like the take away healing surges instead of stun - it would be an attack against fortitude as well. Maybe limit the minor action bonus to at will while at heroic - encounter while at paragon and daily when you get to epic. Also the damage would be against fortitude.

 

[Zaruthustran]

It seemed to me like the whole defiling/preserving thing was in some ways put into Dark Sun as a way to balance the extreme power of arcane casters in 2E. I think it'd be worth considering Defile effects only coming into play for Paragon-tier powers, AOE Heroic-tier powers, and any arcane powers used when spending an action point. That way the effects will be a bit rare, rare enough for them to interesting.

You could them make Defiler and Preserver into paragon paths (and Dragon and Avangion into Epic Destinies).

4e is just a lot different from 2e, where the wizard would only have a handful of spells for the entire day. The wizard player will be doing magic *every round*, and can use his at-will powers all day long. Forcing the wizard to constantly deal with defilement is just a pain in the butt, and would either discourage the class entirely or make the act of defiling magic completely mundane/unexciting.

Edit: I really like the idea of Preserving draining (in some way) the caster's healing surges. Maybe use 4e's simple save system. Each time a Preserver casts a spell, make a save. Success = spell goes off, and you're able to keep your surges. Fail = spell goes off, and you lose an entire healing surge.

 

[Dausuul]

Ooh, nasty. That's an interesting idea.

Of course, I just realized... the flip side of this is that when NPC defilers use their powers, they'll eat the PCs' healing surges. With the effect that PCs will start to really hate and fear NPC defilers.

I'm cool with that.

 

[dangerous jack]

Wow. What about burning a healing surge to preserve? That's tempting. Say you sack a healing surge and that fuels a number of spells equal to the hp it would have healed. That way you don't have to sack one per spell, you are limited, and it makes defiling really tempting.

This goes with the novels as the preserver magic was often described as draining the caster. Also, this could be part of a path or destiny, taking a healing surge from a target creature to fuel casting. This works for the idea of the transformation as well. Kalak had to sacrifice a stadium full of people to advance.

I really like the idea of preserving using a healing surge. I seem to recall one of the devs talking about other uses for surges (and how they're just another resource the PC has), so this might fit well.

Flavour-wise, I also like the minor action to preserve, but think it'd get boring for a player to use his minor action every turn to preserve. Although as an additional option for the player, it might work (e.g. spend a minor action or a healing surge).

 

[Spatula]

It seemed to me like the whole defiling/preserving thing was in some ways put into Dark Sun as a way to balance the extreme power of arcane casters in 2E.

If there's one thing 2e Dark Sun was not concerned with, it was game balance.

 

[StarFyre]

problems

Defiling was a major story element for dark sun.

The concepts I see here are totally destroying that.

It is easy enough to convert settings to 4E, but still keeping elements you wish from setting such as Dark Sun.

There is no real reason to change it.

With what we have done for our custom mages that will move forward to 4E, is that the defiling allows for effects, some like metamagic, others enhanced powers onto spells...allowing greater effects for the price... Several effects vs the con of the wizard (again, having to do with how we run casters with our house rules) balance this quite well as players don't want to start 'overloading' every spell they can.

I think people are too concerned with trying to let their vision of what they want, mesh with WotC idea of 4E instead of letting your own desire for what you think is fun and cinematic drive your ideas...

Sanjay

 

[Dausuul]

Defiling was a major story element for dark sun.

The concepts I see here are totally destroying that.

It is easy enough to convert settings to 4E, but still keeping elements you wish from setting such as Dark Sun.

There is no real reason to change it.

With what we have done for our custom mages that will move forward to 4E, is that the defiling allows for effects, some like metamagic, others enhanced powers onto spells...allowing greater effects for the price... Several effects vs the con of the wizard (again, having to do with how we run casters with our house rules) balance this quite well as players don't want to start 'overloading' every spell they can.

I think people are too concerned with trying to let their vision of what they want, mesh with WotC idea of 4E instead of letting your own desire for what you think is fun and cinematic drive your ideas...

Sanjay

I don't know about anyone else, but I'm not trying to change the operation of Dark Sun magic to "mesh with WotC idea of 4E." I'm using 4E tools to try and capture what I feel to be the essence of defiling/preserving, while still making a game I want to run. I actually don't think 2E handled the game mechanics of defiling very well.

I mean, sure, I could do what 2E did--make the defiler level up way faster than everybody else. But then PC defilers fall into the Suck/God trap. They're vastly more powerful than other PCs, so if I want them to not dominate the game 100% of the time, I have to have druids and templar lurking around every corner waiting to jump on them whenever they defile... with the result that half the time they Suck, and the other half they're God. I don't like that dynamic, from either side of the DM's screen. Especially given that the defiler's particular brand of Suck has a tendency to drag the other PCs down with him.

I'd rather come up with some mechanics that allow me to not have to constantly punish defilers for the use of their magic, while still retaining the central idea of defiling as the "quick and easy path" to power, a dangerous addiction for wizards who use it and a constant temptation for wizards who don't.

 

[StarFyre]

what we found

what we have done is not that they advance faster...but wizards who defile have their spells being enhanced with the power the absorb from nature (and killing the environment around them)...

What this does is a spell may do an extra d6 of damage as an example.

Honestly, it's laughable how some believe a minor thing like that kills the balance of a game. it doesn't...in 16 years of Dming i KNOW it doesn't.

I just want to point out that many changes being discussed really don't have to go that far, as they are sounding, which in tail is destroying the vision of Dark Sun.

Personally, I love the changes for all classes, except for the cleric, wizard, and to some degree, the warlock in 4E...but what was done in older editions, I also don't like.

Sadly, for my players opinions, and my own and from the complaints I have seen on some of the gameplay from people who have played it extensively...we've decided to do tons of house rules on these classes...

Regards,

Sanjay