D&D 5E Dark Sun doesn't actually need Psionics

[cmad1977]

I mean... yes, Dark Sun can totally be done without psionics.

 

[Aldarc]

Now this, I would say, would harm the setting’s themes. Arcane magic destroyed the world, you can’t have Dark Sun without it, any more than you can have Fallout without nuclear weapons. Players don’t need to have access to it, but it needs to exist in the setting.

Would it though? Could it not be replaced by some other calamity, such as the destruction of the Sun? Or the war between the Gods and the Primordials? What matters is that Dark Sun is a harsh dying planet. Is arcane magic needed to those ends anymore than psionics is for the setting?

I love how you take "a harsh and alien world," which is indisputably a central theme of Dark Sun, and casually slide "of psionics" into it so that anyone who wants to dispute the "psionics" part now has to disentangle it from the "harsh and alien world" part first.

IMHO, it's part of what makes it a bit more alien from the usual D&D flair.

More like the devestated landscape, fighting over extremely limited resources for survival, and warlords. Psionics can be part of post apoc settings, sure, but it's not a necessary nor sufficient part. Maybe I'm in a minority, but when someone says, "Hey, I want to try this post-apocalyptic setting/game," I don't immediately go, "cool, I love psionics!"

But we are not just playing in any post-apocalyptic setting/game, but Dark Sun, where psionics are a part of the character, tone, landscape.

Okay. That says to me that, for you, any setting that has a psionic system is good for you (caveat: psionic system that you like). I say that because nothing in Dark Sun relies on psionics to exist except psionics, so primarily liking psionics suggests that the rest of the setting is just a vehicle for you.

You mean apart from the iconic psionic creatures? Or the psionics that the Dragon Kings need to become dragons? But are you arguing that once you remove all the psionics in the setting then there is nothing psionic about Dark Sun? Like if you remove all the water from the ocean there is nothing wet about the sea?

I mean, we can disagree about this again, but I haven't seen a convincing argument for this yet. It's mostly just 'but it's flavored differently so that makes it totally different' or 'it uses different mechanics to do the magic stuff,' and, fundamentally, those don't make it not another magic system.

Are or are there not arcane magic effects that psionics in either 2e or 4e cannot replicate?

Question, then, did Dark Sun have psionics because it was thematically important for the Dragon Kings to weild psionics in addition to defiling magic and Dragon magic, or were Dragon Kings powerful psionists because psionics were included in Dark Sun and they needed to be formidable even against the new magic system?

My vote is the latter. The Dragon Kings are just as terrifying and powerful if no psionics exist. Their place in Athas has pretty much nothing to do with psionics. This goes to the root of my OP question.

Does the why matter, Ovinomancer? Because what seems to matter is not the intent behind why it's there but the fact that it is there.

And, we have plenty of weird alien creatures in D&D without psionics. Psionics is just another way to make things weird and alien, it's neither necessary nor sufficient to do so, though.

Sure, but what matters and what you are trying to marginalize is that the creators used psionics to make them weird and alien for Dark Sun. It's an integral part of the setting.

Nice strawman -- of course you do not. But the defiling nature of arcane magic is rooted deep into Dark Sun, is a primary point of contention in the setting, and is a primary point of contention with the PCs. Psionics is none of this with regards to DS.

That's blatantly false though, Ovinomancer, because psionic magic is rooted deep into Dark Sun. You're just engaging in "apart from the roads, the aqueducts, et al. what have the Romans ever done for us?" logic.

Was it false? I mean, that's the opposition the setting creates intentionally. Or is it that you think psionics is part of that equation?

IMHO, psionics form a part of the balance. It is the power of the self. It is the power of the living individual that exists within this world.

For what it's worth, I find fisking to be intentionally rude and a rhetorical trick to place things out of their surrounding context and attack them as isolated statements rather than supporting arguments.

For what it's worth, Ovinomancer, I think it's more important that people should be allowed to enjoy things they like, such as psionics in Dark Sun, and it's a terrible shame that you can't seem to understand that.

 

[Charlaquin]

Would it though? Could it not be replaced by some other calamity, such as the destruction of the Sun? Or the war between the Gods and the Primordials? What matters is that Dark Sun is a harsh dying planet. Is arcane magic needed to those ends anymore than psionics is for the setting?

You could replace arcane magic with any source of mass environmental destruction without affecting the tone of Dark Sun. You could not replace it without affecting the themes. Pretty much the opposite of psionics in that way.

The tone of a work is the feeling that results from its tropes, genre conventions, and iconography. Dark Sun’s tone is defined by its harsh, dying world, its high-powered characters and deadly threats, its artwork, and yes, its prominent use of psionics.

The theme of a work is the underlying messages its story conveys. Dark Sun’s themes are about class conflict, corruption, and environmentalism. Defiling magic is the thematic backbone of the setting, making magic an allegory for fossil fuels. Technically it wouldn’t have to be arcane magic. It could be any source of incredible power whose use directly harms the environment. But it is crucial to the game’s themes that the reason the world is in the devastated and dying state that it is, is because powerful people abused a resource that they knew was killing the world so they could become the kings of its desiccated husk. If you changed it so that the world was wrecked by a natural disaster, a conflict between the gods, or some other source beyond mortal control, the setting might not be much different tonally, but it would have drastically different themes.

And I agree with OP that psionics really aren’t necessary to the themes of Darksun. They do arguably provide a thematic counterpoint to arcane magic, an alternative route to power that comes from within and requires discipline but doesn’t harm the world. But preserving magic does that too. You could lose either without harming the setting’s themes as long as you kept the other (and to be honest, I kinda think the existence of preserving magic harms the themes a little bit.) But, theme isn’t everything, and psionics do inform Dark Sun’s tone quite a bit. That’s why the strongest (IMO) arguments in favor of them point out that they serve to make the world weirder, and tie into tropes of super-powered mutants in similar post-apocalyptic fiction. They’re important to the feel of the setting, even if they don’t really matter to its message.

 

[Aldarc]

But @Charlaquin that seems like a different argument from - oh, I don't know - that Dark Sun doesn't actually need psionics.

 

[Charlaquin]

But @Charlaquin that seems like a different argument from - oh, I don't know - that Dark Sun doesn't actually need psionics.

It is. I voted for the “it’s complicated” option. Because I do see and to an extent agree with the argument that you don’t need psionics to tell the stories Dark Sun tells. You could cut them completely, and while it wouldn’t feel the same, it would still work, at least thematically. Does Dark Sun need psionics? Depends on how you define “need,” I guess. I do think removing them would change the character of the setting, but I don’t think that character is necessary for the kinds of stories I would want to use Dark Sun to tell.

 

[J-H]

I've never played Dark Sun. I think part of the reason psionics is necessary is that otherwise, it's a very low magic setting.
-Clerics are limited to elements, and are rare and not part of mainstream society
-Defilers are evil-only, and Preservers have a hard time not looking like defilers
-IIRC, Warlocks would be pawns of the Sorcerer King (ie NPCs) with few exceptions

This leaves druids and rangers as the only magic classes, and I think there's some reason druids are rare too.

Psionics provides a "it's really not magic" option for magic.

 

[Minigiant]

To me, one of the central ideas of Dark Sun is one kind of magic is barely there and the other kind ruined the place.

So people started using notmagic.

 

[J-H]

One solution might be to limit psionics in a Dark Sun setting to sorcerer, fighter, and X subclasses only, and then, for Dark Sun, give them a different list of spells that they can pick from... so a Psionic Sorcerer doesn't get Fireball, ever, but he gets Id Insinuation and Ego Whip and (fill in the blank).

That avoids the need for an entirely new mechanic, at the expense of a "you have a different spells-avaiable list because your magic is different in this setting" curve to learn on.

 

[Ovinomancer]

Would it though? Could it not be replaced by some other calamity, such as the destruction of the Sun? Or the war between the Gods and the Primordials? What matters is that Dark Sun is a harsh dying planet. Is arcane magic needed to those ends anymore than psionics is for the setting?

IMHO, it's part of what makes it a bit more alien from the usual D&D flair.

But we are not just playing in any post-apocalyptic setting/game, but Dark Sun, where psionics are a part of the character, tone, landscape.

You mean apart from the iconic psionic creatures? Or the psionics that the Dragon Kings need to become dragons? But are you arguing that once you remove all the psionics in the setting then there is nothing psionic about Dark Sun? Like if you remove all the water from the ocean there is nothing wet about the sea?

Are or are there not arcane magic effects that psionics in either 2e or 4e cannot replicate?

Does the why matter, Ovinomancer? Because what seems to matter is not the intent behind why it's there but the fact that it is there.

Sure, but what matters and what you are trying to marginalize is that the creators used psionics to make them weird and alien for Dark Sun. It's an integral part of the setting.

That's blatantly false though, Ovinomancer, because psionic magic is rooted deep into Dark Sun. You're just engaging in "apart from the roads, the aqueducts, et al. what have the Romans ever done for us?" logic.

IMHO, psionics form a part of the balance. It is the power of the self. It is the power of the living individual that exists within this world.

For what it's worth, Ovinomancer, I think it's more important that people should be allowed to enjoy things they like, such as psionics in Dark Sun, and it's a terrible shame that you can't seem to understand that.

Huh. I usually like you @Aldarc, you have interesting things to say, but I have noted that if someone does disagree with you, you pretty quickly reach for strawmen and ad hominin attacks. I'm an exceeding strong believer that people should always play what they like, how they like. Trying to suggest that I want to take something away from people is admitting you don't have a better argument and so need to reach for the insult. I don't think you can't make a good argument, I just think you're being lazy here and reaching for the low-hanging fruit of attacking the poster rather than the post.

This thread was because I was reading the Tasha's psionic thread and Dark Sun kept being brought up as a hope the WotC would "do more" with psionics because it's so important to Dark Sun and it occurred to me that the only importance that psionics really has to DS is the tradition -- removing it requires zero other change to the setting, and it's character doesn't alter at all. If what you like about Dark Sun is that it's the magic in it is primarily psionics, then, yeah, that's going to be a non-starter, and that's fine, great even. People like what they like. But, that doesn't mean that psionics is actually integral to Dark Sun rather that just being the traditional place it was put -- largely, I think, because psionics doesn't fit well in the other setting at that time, so there it went. It's not integrated into the themes of Dark Sun; it's a separate piece that doesn't strongly interact with the other setting elements. And, because of that, the odds that WotC will do anything to create a different psionic system for Dark Sun (if they pick up the setting at all) is just about zero -- they don't really need to. That 4e, with it's radically different psionics system from 2e, did Dark Sun is strong proof that psionics aren't actually integral to the rest setting, they're just in there. Again, if psionics is your favorite thing then I understand why Dark Sun is a favorite setting and why removing psionics would be unwelcome, but that, as I said earlier to you, implies that the Dark Sun setting isn't that important to you -- any setting with strong and flavorful psionics would be welcomed.

But, lay off the assumptions of my intent. They don't make you look good.

 

[Ovinomancer]

You're an exceedingly strange person.

But here's the last post I'm making.

You can assert whatever you want. There was a person in my Greyhawk threads that kept saying that he could play X style in Eberron, which is true! You can play any style, and have any rules, in any setting. You can put the gods into Dark Sun, or have magic restore the environment. You can play a Forgotten Realms without spellcasters. Because every table is different.

But Dark Sun, in every published version, has done this. For you to now say, "Well, that's just tradition. That's just what Dark Sun has always done," gives away the game. You're right! Dark Sun has always had a heavy integration of lore and rules for psionics; it is an iconic part of the setting.

Just like you don't need to have artificers and uqbiquitous "magic as tech" or pulp or noir in Eberron- after all, it's just tradition.

To your first, sure, no arguments, you can do what you want. That's not at all what my argument is, but we don't disagree here.

To your second, this is the argument from tradition. It has been done, so it must be done. That's fine, for what it is, my question wasn't "should psionics be removed from Dark Sun" but rather "does Dark Sun need psionics to be Dark Sun?" There's a difference, here. The latter is trying to look at what's actually important to the setting of Dark Sun -- what themes and tropes does it entail and is psionics a core part of those themes and tropes. So far, I haven't seen anyone show how psionics enables the themes and tropes of Dark Sun. The argument is that psionics is a theme and trope of Dark Sun, just one that doesn't have anything to do with any of the other themes and tropes, and one that can undergo a massive change in scope and mechanics from 2e to 4e and not, at all, alter anything else about the setting. If you make major changes to a thing, but nothing else notices, can you really say it's an integrated and non-severable thing?

But this argument is ridiculous. You and 13 do what you want at your own table.

Oh. No. I thought that you were lowkey13 -- a poster that was quite popular around here until he quit over a misunderstanding about moderation. It was quite sad. Your posting style, choice of topics, commonality of positions, and very recent join date made me think you were lowkey13 returned, and I was welcoming you back. My bad. Still, good news, you share traits with a past popular member of the boards!