Dark Sun - Player's Guide rendered obsolete

[Danzauker]

I really think it's just a matter of money.

I'd really have liked a 2 book (3 with monsters) setting model, because I like DS, but I was not surprised of the news.

Let's face it: Forgotten Realms and Eberron are the big league. Almost every new player is going to play one of the two, maybe both.

Dark Sun is the first oddball setting. I can understand if at WotC don't want to risk it, and expect far lesser sales.

Less sales = lower break even point = higher cost x page. Since as other said there's already the need for a dedicated monster manual, due to the nature of the setting, and if you want to include psionics you also need the PH3, the only sound option is to pack player and DM stuff in only one book.

 

[Windjammer]

- snip -

You know, some recent supplements like Primal Power, Revenge of the Giants, AV 2, PH 2, or Plane Below really expand on the 4E core setting's cosmology, which is not so much focused on the planes but on the "Dawn War" - a clash of the deities and primordials at the beginning of creation. The repercussions of that most ancient of conflicts on the current state of the prime material is what defines a good portion of the implied 4E core setting in the aforementioned supplements. WotC is steadily building on this, but has made an effort to not strongly convey that as a Official Core Setting.

There's also plenty mateiral on the Dawn War in the FR Campaign Guide, and I'm building my next 4E campaign around that. Really, I know what you're talking about regarding Golarion and the continual growth of the setting+cosmology via little nuggets in the individual books, but I'm getting a similar (if more subdued) vibe from the 4E books recently.

Finally, if you're into the Nentir Vale from the DMG 1 I suggest checking out reviews on the new Herotic tier series of adventures when these come out. They are pitched as Nentir Vale modules.

 

[fba827]

What was in the PH book for FR and Eberron?
* Races (For DS i don't believe there has been official announcement one way or the other, right?)
* Classes (For DS they already said there won't be new classes)
* Paragon Paths (For DS I'm sure this will be there)
* 2 pages on each of the selected locations (For DS I'm sure this will be there)
* feats, rituals (For DS I'm sure this will be there)
* what am I missing?

What was in the DM book for FR and Eberron?
* more pages on selected locations (For DS I never found there to be much "DM secret knowledge" on locations -- at least the areas my old group played, the nomadic nature often left any settlement too loose to have those deep rooted secrets. They secrets were held by people, not places or groups. Of course, my experience my have been different than how it was supposed to be)
* specific NPCs (For DS can easily toss this in with the monster book)
* a couple creatures (For DS they do have more of these taking up more space)
* some info secret organizations/cults/etc (For DS I'm actually okay with this getting tossed in to the creature book, like "human" entries as cult members and their lore section talks about where they are from and what their goals are)
* what am I missing?


So, personally, think that would fit quite well and naturally for Dark Sun.

A 32 page softcover for 4E by WotC costs $10 (point of comparison: Dragonborn and Tiefling race codeces).

I'm not sure that's a good comparison to make. Monster-focused books cost more because of the art -- you need specific artwork for each creature. Plus (unless I am mistaken) I think the race books are black and white (but don't quote me on that, since I'm speaking from memory on this).

 

[DaveMage]

My displeasure isn't so much that there is no Player's Guide, but that there is a reduced page count for the $40 price point compared to the other setting books.

As Ryan Dancey once said, (paraphrasing) you don't worry when people complain about pricing, you worry when they stop buying.

Don't like the price? The only way to really show your dissatisfaction is to not buy the product.

 

[Evilhalfling]

well, as much as I would value the seperation in DM/Player content for DS
I am tempted more by getting all the info i need on the world in a single book, rather than fliping between the two.

I am more likely to buy this single book, than I am too have purchased both player and DM guides. Im not likely to play DS anyway, but I have a fondness lingering from older editions, and it has been a good source to steal info from.

So far only PHB3 and another month of DDO, are my only must-haves for the year, but a single DS book is a strong contender for my limited gaming budget.

 

[paigeoliver]

I am surprised to even see a Dark Sun for 4th edition. The lavish and complex Dark Sun product line throughout the 90s was one of the major reasons TSR ended up in such a bad spot, as they kept pouring more money and development time into Dark Sun products that gamers largely just had no interest in.

I remember my christmas wish lists back then had the words "Do Not Buy ANYTHING with the word Dark Sun on the cover".

Birthright was similarly bad in that respect, but as I recall the products weren't so complex as the Dark Sun ones were.

I can't imagine the new Dark Sun will be any more popular than the old one (in fact it would have to be much less popular since less people play D&D now), and if they try to support it in a big way it can hurt them just as much as the old one.

 

[AllisterH]

That's interesting paigeoliver.

I think we all forget sometimes that not everyone loved Darksun. That said, while we know Forgotten Realms was popular (as was Al-qadim as evidenced by the fact that it got 1 extra year of material instead of the two it had been scheduledfor originally) do we know how well DS did for TSR?

Was DS profitable for TSR a la Al-qadim or was it more like Spelljammer?

 

[ggroy]

Someone up thread said that there'll be hardly any new classes and races in Dark Sun. That's not true. A great deal of that info is in Player's Handbook 3, along with the psionic power source which is pretty much indispensable for running Dark Sun in 4E.

Long story, short answer: the PH 3 is such a strong tie-in to the Dark Sun setting that another DS Player's Guide is rendered obsolete - in the sense of not creating enough additional buyer incentive. (Reminds me of how the 3.5 expanded Psionics handbook also contained the Dark Sun races.)

Also a "Psionic Power" book is scheduled for release the same month as the 4E Dark Sun titles (August 2010). Perhaps some Dark Sun style stuff may end up in the "psionic power" book too.

 

[TerraDave]

I feel stupid for posting this thread. See, I missed the elephant in the room.

Someone up thread said that there'll be hardly any new classes and races in Dark Sun. That's not true. A great deal of that info is in Player's Handbook 3, along with the psionic power source which is pretty much indispensable for running Dark Sun in 4E.

Long story, short answer: the PH 3 is such a strong tie-in to the Dark Sun setting that another DS Player's Guide is rendered obsolete - in the sense of not creating enough additional buyer incentive. (Reminds me of how the 3.5 expanded Psionics handbook also contained the Dark Sun races.)

Hey, my thread title still works.

Good catch. And, as these keep rolling out, it makes sense to have a setting that puts more emphasis on newer things and less on older things.

 

[TerraDave]

I am surprised to even see a Dark Sun for 4th edition. The lavish and complex Dark Sun product line throughout the 90s was one of the major reasons TSR ended up in such a bad spot, as they kept pouring more money and development time into Dark Sun products that gamers largely just had no interest in.

I don't think it was Darksun. I think it was Darksun, Forgotten Realms, Greyhawk, Spelljammer, Birthright, Mystara, Al-Qadim, Planescape, Dragon Lance, Ravenloft...

Ah, the good old days, when you could have 5 or 6 new D&D products every single month.