Dark Sun: Weapon Breakage Rules, Can They Be Better?

[WanderingMonster]

If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

 

[FireLance]

Link to the previous discussion.

And my thoughts from the thread:

Frankly, I'm not sure whether I would bother with it in my games, but that's because I'm not a fan of weapon breakage in general. It also seems slightly counter-intuitive to me: you only get to re-roll your attack roll if you roll a natural 1?

If I were to have a weapon breakage rule in my game, it would probably be more along the lines of: before you roll your attack roll, you may decide to gain a +1 bonus to the roll, but your weapon breaks if you roll a natural 1.

It is thus in the player's hands whether and when he wants to use his weapon conservatively and safely or adopt a more aggressive and risky style that has the chance to break his weapon.

Just to maintain parity, the same approach could also apply to implements, which get "overloaded" and unuseable thereafter on a natural 1.​

 

[Lancelot]

I like the Dark Sun rule. It's less arbitrary than alternatives I've seen, and it heightens tension.

I can see members of my gaming group sometimes choosing to go for the re-roll when the situation is dire. I can also guarantee everybody at the table will immediately stop and hover over the dice like leering vultures to see exactly what will happen. Same sort of thing happens with my group when someone is making a death save with two boxes already checked - they love the schadenfreude.

 

[fanboy2000]

I like the rule. I'm not sure why anyone would be upset at a rule that encourages people to carry multiple weapons. Isn't that what you would expect in a world with highly breakable weapons?

 

[Tony Vargas]

The problem with the rule is that it makes breakable weapons /better/ than normal ones. If you never choose the re-roll, your weapon never breaks, and it's exactly as good as a normal weapon. Having the choice to re-roll a 1, even at a high risk of losing the weapon, is still better than not having a choice.

That's why I say make it break on a 20. You can have the crit & the weapon breaks, or you can take a re-roll and maybe hit, maybe miss, but keep your weapon. That's not as good as a normal weapon, but still adds some drama - and encourages you to carry multiple weapons just in case.


Another thing, if you want to see weapons break, is just use inherent bonuses. That way, magic weapons are mainly just a source of the odd property or daily power, and not vital to the character retaining his effetiveness - thus, it's OK if they break now and then.

 

[Gradine]

The problem with the rule is that it makes breakable weapons /better/ than normal ones. If you never choose the re-roll, your weapon never breaks, and it's exactly as good as a normal weapon. Having the choice to re-roll a 1, even at a high risk of losing the weapon, is still better than not having a choice.

That's why I say make it break on a 20. You can have the crit & the weapon breaks, or you can take a re-roll and maybe hit, maybe miss, but keep your weapon. That's not as good as a normal weapon, but still adds some drama - and encourages you to carry multiple weapons just in case.


Another thing, if you want to see weapons break, is just use inherent bonuses. That way, magic weapons are mainly just a source of the odd property or daily power, and not vital to the character retaining his effetiveness - thus, it's OK if they break now and then.

In Dark Sun is there no such thing as a non-breakable weapon. If your weapons are metal they can break too... they only break on a 1-5 on the reroll if memory serves me. I don't get the impression that magic weapons will really exist in Dark Sun. I think inherent bonuses are kind of the norm.

I wouldn't use this rule probably in any setting other than Dark Sun unless it really fit the vibe of the setting... and then inherent bonuses would be a no-brainer.

I would probably replace magic weapon properties with boons. As in; during a short rest you can imbue one weapon with the Frost property or whatnot. Your Stone Frost Warhammer breaks in the middle of a fight; you pick up a fallen enemy's Bone Mace, and next battle you have a Bone Frost Mace. Or something like that. Let the hero's go on quests to receive such boons.

Or just leave everyone with bogstandard weapons, which works just as well. Will have to mull it over with my players.

 

[The Little Raven]

That's why I say make it break on a 20.

So, you want to tax my crits by penalizing me for rolling well? I roll crappy all day, and finally get a 20, and you want to take my weapon away?

No thanks. I'll stick with the choice to reroll a 1 and break my weapon over some slave trader's head.

 

[DracoSuave]

The problem with the rule is that it makes breakable weapons /better/ than normal ones. If you never choose the re-roll, your weapon never breaks, and it's exactly as good as a normal weapon. Having the choice to re-roll a 1, even at a high risk of losing the weapon, is still better than not having a choice.

Non breakable weapons in Dark Sun can also use the rule, with the added bonus that they are very unlikely to break, rather than will break.

 

[ourchair]

I think the rule should only matter much at low levels, when magic weapons are scarse. I think it's silly that a magic weapon can break, even if it is made of poor material. Magic weapons should ignore that rule. So, you should only worry about it at low levels, when you don't have magic items, or if you are an implement user who is only using a weapon because you're in a dire straight, or your DM is nasty and has taken away your magic items at a higher level.

If I had to use a weapon breakage rule, though, I do like yours, Ourchair.

Thanks, Camelot. The only concern I have with my own rule idea is that it increases book keeping which can be problematic at certain tables. I tend to give loot in the form of chopped up index cards, so it's not a problem for me to just put three little circles in there to fill up.

I don't much care for that rule, since it makes weapons that might break /better/, than regular ones. You can use the weapon and never take a re-roll on a 1, and it's exactly like a normal non-breaking weapon, or you can take a re-roll once in a while.

Weapons that might break should be inferior. Going with a similar mechanic:


When you roll a 20, you can either inflict crit damage, and your weapon breaks, or, you can take a re-roll and keep your weapon intact. The re-roll can be a crit, in which case you do crit damage without breaking your weapon.

The idea being if you fight 'cautiously' to keep from breaking your weapon, you won't get in so many really good hits.

Or, very simply: when you roll a 1 your weapon breaks. If you use a power that lets you re-roll the 1, the weapon only breaks if you roll another 1. Or, you could make it a little less certain: When you roll a 1 on an attack vs AC, roll again vs the target's FORT, if the second roll would be a miss, the weapon breaks, otherwise there is no effect.

Here's another:

When you acquire a breakable weapon pick or randomly generate a number between 2 and 20. Subsequently, when you roll that number and hit, you choose to either have the weapon break, or turn the hit into a miss. If the number is 20, you choose to have the weapon break, or turn the crit into an ordinary hit. If you roll the number and miss, the weapon breaks.
Alternately, you could have a different-color 'breaker die' that you roll at the same time as your attack die, if both come up the same number, the weapon breaks.
Alter-alternately, you could re-roll the attack die and the weapon doesn't break if it comes up /lower/ than the breaker die.

With either of those, or with the original, re-roll powers are handy. If you miss with the re-roll granted/imposed by a weapon-breaking rule, you can use the re-roll power.

Another thing they could have done was simply add some powers that break weapons - to monsters, and to some of the classes, or as a universeally available combat action, like a grab.

Great post. The spirit behind the various iterations of breakage rules you've come up with are great, and I'd definitely take them and offer them as ideas at my table.

One thing I'm trying to gauge in choosing a breakage rule is whether or not it's meant to ENCOURAGE Dark Sun sensibilities, or exist independently of those sensibilities. For example, the material released so far shows that characters CAN get more magic items in 4E Dark Sun than in 2E Dark Sun, they just aren't MAGICAL items so much as they are SPECIAL. (e.g. "an acid-tipped sword," or a "helmet with spikes")

So a breakage rule that encourages ppl to play safe and sport multiple items is more Dark Sun-ey than a breakage rule that offers the POSSIBILITY of taking a second chance at a Daily. Anyway, just brainfarting here. Great discussion, all.

 

[TheClone]

I'm also not quite happy with the breakage rules. Comparing it with the tension when doing a death save after two failed ones, the tension seems to be less. After deciding to reroll you may still hit, but the main thing is done: The weapon break (except for metal weapons). I would like to have some more randomness in the actual breaking.

Building on the idea of a save for the weapon: Once you roll a 1, you may decide to turn this into a normal hit (no crit or anything, just a regular hit), but you have to roll an immediate save. If you fail, the weapon brakes. If you success, it stays whole. Metal weapons get a +2 bonus (or +5?). Rolling that save will make the tension rise better, I think. And an auto-hit is really compelling.

In fact this shifts the odds more in favor of the characters, but that's the D&D 4 style anyway, isn't it? And the official rule isn't quite a good choice, if the attack isn't really going to make a big difference. And rolling a 1 one on a important attack isn't going to happen often. And carrying 3 to 5 weapons is okay. But after that it gets somehow ridiculous. You'll look like a hedgehog.