Darkvision: Don't forget the Disadvantage & limitations!

[Doc_Klueless]

On the contrary, I believe any rule as frequently forgotten about or ignored as this one is bad and should be removed.

While I don't feel that way, I can understand where you might. I say that because, since I brought it to the front of my mind a couple of years ago, I haven't forgotten it yet and it's only added to my game.

Much better to reinstate low-light vision to the game (elves, gnomes, owls) and have Darkvision work the way people intuitively think it works.

The best fix for darkvision, by far imo, is to turn it into low light vision instead. When only monsters see naturally in the dark, the game is better for it.

Well, sure. You both could do that as could anyone else. I was just pointing out that the rules themselves have limitations built into Darkvision.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

On the contrary, I believe any rule as frequently forgotten about or ignored as this one is bad and should be removed.

Much better to reinstate low-light vision to the game (elves, gnomes, owls) and have Darkvision work the way people intuitively think it works.

No, that rule is good. It is also good that it is limited to 60ft. That way you don't have to describe everything three times. You stand in a great cave with strange textures reminding of flowers in every colour you can imagine.
You stand in a great cave with textures that remind you of flowers.
You stand in the dark.

That way: you stand in a cave that is bigger than your darkvision range is.
Or usually: you are in a cave that extends far beyond your dim light radius.
Having a reason for darkvison races to have light is a big plus for me... and it reminds a bit on infravision of old.

 

[ad_hoc]

Still beats automatically failing all stealth attempts and being noticed even around corners or from miles away

I disagree.

Disadvantage to perception means characters will be surprised a lot. Being surprised is terrible and greatly increases the chances of a TPK if enough characters were surprised.

The party will likely not be stealthy even with no light anyway, and they likely won't know where enemies are to be stealthy too. A lot of enemy creatures, especially ones who live in darkness, will get about with senses that don't rely on light so the party will still be obvious to them.

Darkvision has its place, but as written it isn't something to be used in night to night adventuring.

 

[CubicsRube]

I fully plan on implementing it when i next run a 5e campaign. I'm in the camp of eliminating dark vision all together UNLESS it is for races like drow who get disadvantage in full light, so theres a trade off.

Id much rather put eveyone in the same step.

In the broader picture, i think while many are aware how players can push for advantage in a lot of situations, theres many things a dm can give disasvantage for, and they're a great way to make things harder.

Anything that produces a fear effect gives disad if they fail their roll. A dark deep cavern filled with echoes coming from all directions should give disadvantage. If you're creative enough there can be many things that very relistically would give disadvantage to characters.

The search for advantage then is really about getting back on an even footing.

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

It also dawned on me that races that live underground that rely on Darkvision would have designed ways of hiding things to Darkvision that can only be revealed by having a light source. Sort of like special paints that are too subtle under Darkvision to perceive while being noticeable under light. Which also had my dwarf party sparking up dim light Dwarven Torches.

Using paints of different colours but the same light tone would only show where you could distinguish the colour rather than seeing in black and white only.

Its also why intelligent underground races that have darkvision will still use light sources where appropriate rather than relying on darkvision all the time.

 

[CapnZapp]

Still beats automatically failing all stealth attempts and being noticed even around corners or from miles away

Yeah, I don't think the subject is "Darkvision sucks".

Darkvision is excellent, with or without Perception disadvantage.

The "clutter" is what's discussed here, I think.

And I'm discussing the way Darkvision should not have been handed out like candy at Halloween...

 

[Nebulous]

Too many people including Critical Role's Matt Mercer (who is often used as an example of an excellent DM) by his own admission tend to forget the drawbacks of darkvision. Namely that perceptions rolls with Darkvision are at disadvantage. Which is huge when traipsing through a trap/creature infested dungeons.

Oh, most people remember the fact that it can only see things in black and white (and I suppose grey), but it also mimics Dim Light. Dim Light conditions impose disadvantage on perception checks which also means that it's -5 on PASSIVE perception scores that deal with sight.

The problem. I think the main problem is that by ignoring this, darkvision kicks the crap outta human sight even more than it should.

Edit: Yes, I know that it's still better than being blind. The point is that it's not normal vision in darkness. It's poor black & white vision in darkness that still comes with a Disadvantage.

Yep, we went through ALL of Lost Mine and PotA and completely flubbed up this rule. At the start of Tomb I had to remind players that this is how it works. And THIS is why people bring light into dark caves, so they don't suffer penalties.

 

[Nebulous]

Yeah, I don't think the subject is "Darkvision sucks".

Darkvision is excellent, with or without Perception disadvantage.

The "clutter" is what's discussed here, I think.

And I'm discussing the way Darkvision should not have been handed out like candy at Halloween...

I too and somewhat confused by the proliferation of darkvision. I would think that species that are primarily night hunters or underground dwellers would be the ones with Darkvision. But in D&D, that's often not the case.

 

[robus]

On the contrary, I believe any rule as frequently forgotten about or ignored as this one is bad and should be removed.

I think the issue is purely in the description of Darkvision, not in the rule itself. It should simply be written in the description that Darkvision imposes disadvantage to perception checks that rely on sight when the creatures is in dim light.

 

[robus]

And I'm discussing the way Darkvision should not have been handed out like candy at Halloween...

This I totally agree with - I'm looking forward to running a game with zero darkvision enabled characters.