Darkvision Ruins Dungeon-Crawling

[Thomas Shey]

Doesn't that make darkvision fundamentally cease to exist?

Depending on their application, its still useful as a combat benefit, and in an environment where you're not expecting traps or much in the way of inscriptions (natural caves for example) a useful navigation tool. It just doesn't cover all ground.

 

[nevin]

Though I think it's fair to just say that flight in combat turns it from a simple thing to a pain in the ass with or without dark vision. I just dont' think people think well in 3 dimensions and the DM is trying to keep up with 6 other people and adding an x and y axis to everything can really be a pain.

 

[Thomas Shey]

And the truth is, this part of the discussion is largely moot; if you start giving dark dwellers all blindsight, it just means that's what people are going to start wanting. I saw a little of that coming up in my 3e days, and it wasn't super easy to do, but people worked at it. Because its superior to darkvision in some important ways.

 

[nevin]

And the truth is, this part of the discussion is largely moot; if you start giving dark dwellers all blindsight, it just means that's what people are going to start wanting. I saw a little of that coming up in my 3e days, and it wasn't super easy to do, but people worked at it. Because its superior to darkvision in some important ways.

honestly it's one of those things that is exacerbated by the fact that there are no real restrictions on the magic system as a whole. If you had to invoke the gods of darkness and open yourself up to them to use a darkness based spell, this argument would mostly go away. The entire magic system needs to be reworked with some magic being normal and easy enough to do and some magic requiring deals and costs that not everyone is going to be willing to do. That and stuff like if you are casting magic in a magical creatures domain they may notice, The local fairy Queen might come interfere, the dragon may get mad or if he thinks you are too dangerous just leave. Magic got pigenholed as the "get passed the DM's Hijinx" card and now DM's have to think past all the magic made to get passed all the Hijinx of 50 decades of players. I'm not saying you can't run a game with magic in it's current state but It does get painful and diffucult to make encounters at higher level because of it. Some of the monster abilities that turned into racials and feats like Darkvision are just part of that whole problem.
I dont' want magic to become generic firebolts and silvery barbs but I do want magic at higher levels to require deals and invoking dangerous unreliable forces. I want the magic user to look at the part and say "no lets go around moria" , not sure I've got 50 spells to deal with balrogs.

 

[Thomas Shey]

honestly it's one of those things that is exacerbated by the fact that there are no real restrictions on the magic system as a whole. If you had to invoke the gods of darkness and open yourself up to them to use a darkness based spell, this argument would mostly go away.

So you say. I suspect that unless you made the "gods of darkness" unattractive in other ways, people would still do it. Never count on a strongly utilitarian option being skipped because it has a bad look.

And if you did do that, people would simply still keep trying to find a way around it. Because the truth is, people for the most part find struggling with lighting conditions neither interesting nor fun. Carefully walling it off to only monsters just makes them more irritable about it, not still want to do it. Heck, if so many monsters didn't have it they'd likely be less prone to want it in the first place.

I dont' want magic to become generic firebolts and silvery barbs but I do want magic at higher levels to require deals and invoking dangerous unreliable forces. I want the magic user to look at the part and say "no lets go around moria" , not sure I've got 50 spells to deal with balrogs.

Without any intent to be dismissive, I've got to suggest you're probably playing the wrong game if you're playing D&D, then.

 

[Micah Sweet]

So you say. I suspect that unless you made the "gods of darkness" unattractive in other ways, people would still do it. Never count on a strongly utilitarian option being skipped because it has a bad look.

And if you did do that, people would simply still keep trying to find a way around it. Because the truth is, people for the most part find struggling with lighting conditions neither interesting nor fun. Carefully walling it off to only monsters just makes them more irritable about it, not still want to do it. Heck, if so many monsters didn't have it they'd likely be less prone to want it in the first place.



Without any intent to be dismissive, I've got to suggest you're probably playing the wrong game if you're playing D&D, then.

Plenty of versions of D&D that aren't WotC. 5.5 doesn't even have Balrogs .

 

[Thomas Shey]

Plenty of versions of D&D that aren't WotC. 5.5 doesn't even have Balrogs .

I'm sure there's a joke here but its sailing over my head.

 

[loverdrive]

Does darkvision ruin dungeoncrawling? No, not really.

Dungeoncrawling, at its core, is a slot machine. There's only one important choice: do we press on for a chance to find more gold but at a risk of dying horribly and losing everything, or do we go home and forfeit possible future gains?

This slot machine exists with or without darkness as an oppressive force.

Adventure structure, where PCs can't just go home (because they really need to stop the Big Bad Evil Guy at the heart of the dungeon) does way more to ruin dungeoncrawling than any such specifics.

 

[GrimCo]

Adventure structure, where PCs can't just go home (because they really need to stop the Big Bad Evil Guy at the heart of the dungeon) does way more to ruin dungeoncrawling than any such specifics.

And if stopping that BBEG's plan is so vital and time sensitive, why didn't king/noble send couple dozen of his soldiers instead of bunch of misfits to deal with it?

 

[Edgar Ironpelt]

In the 5E game I have been running, the entire party has dark vision.

When the party entered a new room in a dungeon and one or more players said, but I have darkvision, what do I see? I usually respond with something like, Your experience as a competent adventurer tells you that while you may find some things in this room without the aid of light, some aspects may yet evade your sight.

They almost always use light now when exploring a new place.

As a player, my response would be "Noted. And we'll get back to that. Now, what do I see?"

And on getting back to that: "Just what sorts of things would my experience as a competent adventurer tell me that I might miss? Just what are the limitations of Darkvision as you run it?"