Darkvision Ruins Dungeon-Crawling

[Mannahnin]

Which game? This is a ttrpg general thread.

The context of the sub-discussion you were replying to was D&D (all editions). Grimco's post I was replying to contained "D&D" in the text (which you presumably read, in my post, before replying), as did at least the prior three posts in our dialogue.

Unfortunately, darkvision has pretty much always been depicted in D&D as compatible with mundane vision, so anything about "switching" can't be anything but a house rule. My real point was that trying to do comparisons to real world animals isn't useful because no real world creature has anything particularly similar to what is usually called "darkvision".

This is another thing they actually detailed a bit in AD&D with infravision, imposing a two segment delay on adjusting to infravision from normal vision (if the lights suddenly go out, for example). 1979 DMG p59 and referenced in the example of play on p98.

 

[Bill Zebub]

Don't see how that changes my point. Tremorsense has a benefit or two (detecting underground) but see how trying to use it against fliers or those swinging from ropes and see what it gets you.

Exactly.

Ideally, all these different options should have trade-offs. Light is great but enemies can see you coming. A torch is great but you need a free hand, and it can go out. Magical light is great but it uses resources (or should). Darkvision is great but it's easy to miss stuff. Tremorsense is great but there's a bunch it misses. Blindsight is great but only at close range. Etc.

It's only when there's one solution that works ideally for the PCs in all situations that you may as well ignore it.

 

[Retros_x]

No, it does not, because it just results in the party using light sources... and at a base mechanical level using light sources does not impact anything much more than looking out in the "dim light" of darkness with darkvision.

Thats not true for most systems. Light sources usually come with a cost, dark vision rarely. Dark vision removes one layer of resource management. Resource management is a core principle of good dungeon crawl systems IMO. It forces the players to make decisions. Without resource management the party can just "clear" the whole dungeon without any repercussions.

I wouldn't go so far and say darkvision ruin dungeon crawls, but to act like managing light resources and just having darkvision "always on" is the same, not really true. I would say in a city the difference doesn't matter, but in a dangerous environment like a dungeon it matters.

 

[Maxperson]

Agree or disagree? Does everyone in your party have darkvision? Does your GM remember to enforce darkness rules (if any)?

Disagree. If someone doesn't have it, the party uses easy to get permanent light sources anyway.

And yes, the DM remembers to enforce the disadvantage on visual perception checks in 5e if the party all has darkvision. That makes it much harder to find secret doors, see traps, and detect ambushes.

Darkvision in 5e is a nothingburger, and in prior editions it was almost a nothingburger since light was going to virtually always be present anyway.

 

[Reynard]

Adventure structure, where PCs can't just go home (because they really need to stop the Big Bad Evil Guy at the heart of the dungeon) does way more to ruin dungeoncrawling than any such specifics.

This is a true statement.

 

[Maxperson]

These answers only make sense in the context of 5E D&D. This question is asked in TTRPG general. 5E ruined dungeon crawling with a lot more than dark vision, but that doesn't mean dungeon crawling doesn't work in other games.

Darkvision didn't do much in 1e, 2e, 3e, and 5e. Probably not in 4e, either, but I didn't play that.

 

[Maxperson]

I think darkvision has reduced the importance of lighting in modern D&D to the point that it’s mostly inconsequential, and easily forgotten to the detriment of none, if that’s what you want out of the game. However, if light is a key component of your adventure design, having character options that completely bypass it are poor design, IMO.

It’s a sacred cow that I’d personally get rid of.

Light has always been inconsequential. In 1e/2e/3e you earned enough gold to buy continual light spells from NPCs by 2nd level. In 5e light is a cantrip.

 

[Starfox]

In 5E they merged Darkvision and Low-Light Vision. Initially I hated this, but now I think it was actually a good idea. Low-Light Vision was basically unlimited in range outdoors (if you looked up the definition). In our Skull & Shackles game, the elves and gnomes ruled the night where the dwarfs and orcs could only see a measly 20 meters.

Still, I prefer very rare and limited vision powers unless you invest in them. Here are some items that will exist in my coming Liberate Highport game:

Darklight Lantern: A lantern that emits invisible light.

Darklight Goggles: Goggles that let you see in the invisible light of a Darklight Lamp. Vision is sepia-tinted.

This is the scale I want to keep darkvision at.

 

[Starfox]

Light has always been inconsequential. In 1e/2e/3e you earned enough gold to buy continual light spells from NPCs by 2nd level. In 5e light is a cantrip.

Such lights still put you at a disadvantage trying to sneak up on others, which to me is the core of this thread. Common darkvision among monster disables scouting using Stealth.

 

[DEFCON 1]

Thats not true for most systems. Light sources usually come with a cost, dark vision rarely. Dark vision removes one layer of resource management. Resource management is a core principle of good dungeon crawl systems IMO. It forces the players to make decisions. Without resource management the party can just "clear" the whole dungeon without any repercussions.

I wouldn't go so far and say darkvision ruin dungeon crawls, but to act like managing light resources and just having darkvision "always on" is the same, not really true. I would say in a city the difference doesn't matter, but in a dangerous environment like a dungeon it matters.

Well, in order to discuss this claim, I would need to you to tell me of a dungeon crawl game that uses "darkvision" (IE PCs that can see in the dark) but also makes resource management of light source an important aspect of the mechanics. Because that would not be modern Dungeons & Dragons in the slightest. Modern D&D has plenty of species that have darkvision, but having light sources during gameplay has barely a cost and is one of the easiest things a party can supply for themselves as needed-- Light spells, Continual Light spells, lanterns, torches, Driftglobes, magical weapons and armor that shed light, etc. PCs that want light when they dungeon crawl in D&D will almost always have it well in hand and not have to manage a thing.

So having light sources always running in modern D&D means that PCs with darkvision don't really matter all that much. The only times having darkvision does matter are when your scouting PC goes off ahead and can see in the dark... making it easier for them to scout ahead, find things, and then return to the party without being attacked (which is exactly what you want your scout PC to do)... or the DM wants to keep throwing encounters of ranged enemies outside of the group's vision distance to notice the party via their light sources and then take them by surprise by attacking at range (and having light sources makes it easier to find the PCs plus it shortens the PCs' vision distance so that the enemies don't have to attack from as far away.)

So unless you can supply me a game otherwise... I'm willing to believe that most 'dungeon crawl'-centered RPGs that use light resource management as an actual focal point of game play probably doesn't include many (if any) species that have darkvision to begin with (as indeed it ruins the resource management system for lighting.)