D&D General Dave Arneson: Is He Underrated, or Overrated?

[Alzrius]

Dave did publish a game to his own specs meant to compete with D&D.

Adventures in Fantasy.

Adventures in Fantasy - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

It’s probably the closest you’ll get to what Dave intended or would have done as a product.

Though I admit it was written in the shadow of D&D and meant to compete with it. I think Dave really thought it might have competed well against D&D. It absolutely did not.

In terms of a stand-alone product, that's probably the closest, but it's worth noting that Different Worlds #42 and #43 had his two-part Blackmoor adventure "The Garbage Pits of Despair," which is a fascinating snapshot for how he'd have presented Blackmoor on its own.

 

[darjr]

In terms of a stand-alone product, that's probably the closest, but it's worth noting that Different Worlds #42 and #43 had his two-part Blackmoor adventure "The Garbage Pits of Despair," which is a fascinating snapshot for how he'd have presented Blackmoor on its own.

I must find this, thank you.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

It is pretty well documented that Gygax was keen to make enough income from his hobby to support his family. Despite Chainmail (with the fantasy supplement) selling 100+ copies a month, Gygax was disappointed with the insufficient return he was receiving.

Arneson, at that point, was only making pennies from the hobby as a result of his collaborations with Gygax. But, as he was younger and didn't have a family to support, it was less of a concern to him.

The money that Arneson received as co-author of D&D was only that which Gygax had agreed with him. That Gygax decided to try and freeze him out was Gygax's issue.

Whatever his motives, Gygax did tie Arneson into the commercial success of D&D despite the fact that Arneson really wasn't happy with the direction it took. If Arneson hadn't been tied in, then the launch of the publication could have seen it embroiled in bad feelings as Arneson and the Twin Cities crowd could have gone to far greater lengths to bad mouth it and Gygax.

Seriously, all of this has now been covered well in books. not sure why you feel the need to re-argue things incorrectly.

I'll bite, given that I wrote the OP (you did know that, didn't you) and that the OP was a specific response to Jon Peterson's book Game Wizards, which documented this issue in great detail. But you know what- you joined on Saturday solely for the purpose of commenting on this thread, so obviously your snark is well-earned!

Let's break down your points-

First, you seem to elide what I wrote- no one denies that Gygax was trying to make money. No, the point is that Arneson was trying to make money as well. What has been extensively documented, now, is how terrible he was at it. How so many people got burned in the 70s by trusting Arneson. How he repeatedly made claims that he had rules (and didn't), and how he repeatedly had other people do the work ("editing") for him.

Next, you seem to ignore what has actually been reported regarding the lawsuit. There's a reason I referenced Nimmer and the illustrations. It is somewhat impressive that a person managed to say that his game was nothing like what TSR put out, and also that everything that was completely due to his work. And, again, this is basic IP and contract law; the reason for the settlement, as was explored in the book, is because it happened at a moment of maximum leverage. - not because it was earned (it had to do with a contract that was poorly written, and, arguably, a poor decision by the judge early on).

Next, "whatever his motive ..." Dude, THERE IS AN ENTIRE BOOK ABOUT THIS. It has the contracts. It describes exactly how TSR was formed.

So ... maybe educate yourself before you comment? Here's a link-

https://www.amazon.com/Game-Wizards-Dungeons-Dragons-Histories/dp/0262542951

Or ask your library to carry it. KTHX!

 

[darjr]

I… uh…

Ok example.

Arnesons lawyers challenged TSR and claimed he deserved big royalties on Monster Manual II. He made zero contributions to that book as an author and his lawyers didn’t claim he did. They made the claim that it was a derivative of the Monster Manual, which he’d won a case in court already about royalties on that book, so he was due for its “derivative”.

In my mind i do not think Dave was due a single red sent for MMII and absolutely not as much as he asked for.

 

[Bolares]

@Snarf Zagyg c'mon... this bait was more obvious than calling you a bard

 

[Parmandur]

I… uh…

Ok example.

Arnesons lawyers challenged TSR and claimed he deserved big royalties on Monster Manual II. He made zero contributions to that book as an author and his lawyers didn’t claim he did. They made the claim that it was a derivative of the Monster Manual, which he’d won a case in court already about royalties on that book, so he was due for its “derivative”.

In my mind i do not think Dave was due a single red sent for MMII and absolutely not as much as he asked for.

The crazy making thing to me is that he could pribhave done very well with TSR if he just applied himself...

 

[darjr]

The crazy making thing to me is that he could pribhave done very well with TSR if he just applied himself...

I’m not so sure.

I do think him and Gary clashed on many levels. And so, without much power in the relationship, he couldn’t get any traction.

I think much of the myth of “he didn’t do anything” about his time at TSR can be put down to: it was a VERY short time there and he was the kind of person that would clean toilets (work his but off in shipping) cause it needed doing. I think that soaked his time and drained his will.

But I must add that not only Gary had made similar claims about Dave.

 

[CleverNickName]

Welcome to the second in an occasional series: Snarf Presents Hawt Taek Thursdays. The first was a reevaluation of Lorraine Williams, which was not controversial at all, so I thought I'd do something equally banal.

Ah yes. This is the internet content I crave.
One sec, let me grab some popcorn.

 

[overgeeked]

In terms of a stand-alone product, that's probably the closest, but it's worth noting that Different Worlds #42 and #43 had his two-part Blackmoor adventure "The Garbage Pits of Despair," which is a fascinating snapshot for how he'd have presented Blackmoor on its own.

There's also the First Fantasy Campaign from Judge's Guild.

 

[Alzrius]

There's also the First Fantasy Campaign from Judge's Guild.

Good point, although I always feel the need to point out to anyone hunting for a copy of FFC that A) make sure you get the maps that are supposed to come with the book as well, and B) for some reason the third printing only has sixty-four pages compared to the ninety-six in the first two printings. I'm not sure if they shrunk the font size, or if material was liberally cut from the third printing, but it's something to take note of.

EDIT: Also, fun fact, the city of Vestfold in FFC was originally called Tonisborg, being developed by Greg "The Great Svenny" Svenson and set in Dave's Blackmoor setting. Dave changed the name when it came time to publish FFC, presumably because he didn't want to use any of Greg's material without his permission. More on this can be found over on Havard's Blackmoor Blog.