D&D 4E David Noonan on 4E "Cloudwatching" (Added Dave's newest comment from his blog)

[MerricB]

That is the best time to give glimpses, IMHO. Before they are set-in-stone, when they can still be commented on profitably, so that adjustments can be made before they are finalized. In fact, if our observations now can influence the clouds, as Dave suggests, then they should be giving us something to observe, right?

Playtesting is just around the corner.

Cheers!

 

[Raven Crowking]

Playtesting is just around the corner.

Cheers!

(1) Is that a crystal ball in your pocket, or are you just happy to see me?

(2) For a major overhaul, it should have started already.

IMHO, anyway.

 

[Lonely Tylenol]

I've never seen any playtest reports for any game that had those sort of contents. Maybe long after the fact I'll see comments about how they tried something and it didn't work out, or it was sent back for retooling.

There is a big difference between playtest reports used internally (i.e. between playtesters and the designers) and those put out to give an idea of the game. It's sort of pointless to put out a report that showcases something they won't use.

I wasn't suggesting that they do so. Rather, some indication that actual progress is being made in the playtests might suggest that the rules are, in fact, still getting better. This would perhaps mollify the 4e naysayers who just aren't enjoying the previews they've been seeing, since changes are obviously still being made. It might also assuage the worries of those of us who think that they've scheduled entirely too little time for the public playtest. If they're working hard at working all the kinks out internally, and we have evidence of this, it might indicate that the public playtest will be more for polish than for testing mechanics.

 

[Glyfair]

Exactly.....Because one purpose of playtesting is to convince you to buy the game. Which is why they need to hand a copy to Gizmo33 and Celebrim. If they get those guys singing its praises, I'd probably buy it.

No, no it's not. I've been involved in playtesting many years and playtesting is almost never discussed, and almost never allowed to be discussed.

Upon occasion a company will put out a playtesting report to show people what is going on. But that's not the purpose for the playtesting, it's just making of use of what is there.

As an analogy, I've seen TV programs that have gone into beer factories and shown the process for making beer. However, the purpose of running the beer factories isn't to show you how beer is made, they are just using the factory that is already making beer (it's purpose) to show you how they make beer.

 

[Glyfair]

If they're working hard at working all the kinks out internally, and we have evidence of this, it might indicate that the public playtest will be more for polish than for testing mechanics.

They have stated that they pretty much shut the office down for a month just to intensely playtest the game for that month. If that's not "working hard at working all the kinks out internally" then I have no idea what is.

 

[Aeolius]

You're just helping me realize that I'm playing D&D wrong....

One can play D&D WRONG?!? Gads, am I in trouble!

 

[Shortman McLeod]

I I hate to say it to all the "WotC are the devil for wanting profit" types, but money is the reason any company is in business.

I don't believe anyone, anywhere, at any point on enworld has ever claimed that "WotC are the devil for wanting profit".

But at least you killed that straw man.

 

[Khaalis]

That is the best time to give glimpses, IMHO. Before they are set-in-stone, when they can still be commented on profitably, so that adjustments can be made before they are finalized. In fact, if our observations now can influence the clouds, as Dave suggests, then they should be giving us something to observe, right?

Actually its not the best time. As we've already seen, if they were to release major parts of the system before they are finalized and they change, people would scream bloody murder "YOU SAID IT WOULD BE X!" People tend to ignore the "it is still in design and might change" part. As for the response of the industry to changes, we have been giving them feedback for years now. To the release of 3X in general, and to all of the pre-4X material that has come out in the guise of 3X (e.g. Bo9S:ToB, UA, Complete X). We've also been giving feedback on 4X system designs in SW:Saga. This doesn't even mention all the feedback to alternate systems like Iron Heroes, etc. We need to keep in mind that these people do this for a living AND a hobby. They aren't white collar "suits" throwing something together to sell while not knowing their demographic. I truly believe that the R&D team is doing their best to make a good game. Will their definition of "good" be the same as yours, of mine, or someone else's? Maybe, maybe not. You can't please everyone.

Some tidbits, some information, something concrete =/= "all the cards" (unless this edition is really lame, which I doubt).

And we will get this. In time. Its too soon to be letting out major information. We already have a lot of information. More than I think most companies would release at such an early date in the production schedule. You also have to realize that this is where real world marketing comes into play. Its is a solid marketing plan to slowly "leak" information and previews. It is done all the time in the software and movie industries (as well as others). It builds awareness and interest (and yes hype). The bottom line is that they need to sell the product. The bigger the release and more successful the release, the better chance they have to continue the product line. If the product is shoddy, then it will flop right out the door. Keep in mind that they will open play testing to those outside their "comfort zone" from RPGA and D&DInsider subscribers as well as all the people at the conventions from February on that will be play testing the 4E preview modules. The book will also go for review to many sources at least 2 months pre-release which will again give us lots more "unbiased" opinion. All of this will come in time. To expect them to basically say "Hi. We're releasing 4E in May, but heres half the scoop now." is a bit much to expect. Even in movies and software all you get are teasers at first, with more information and longer previews coming closer to release. SOP.

I notice we're not seeing any quotes to the effect of, "we tried out this new mechanic that came down the development pipe, but found some things wrong with it, and so we put together some critiques and ideas on how to fix it, and sent it back to R&D." Rather, all play test experiences are completely awesome (by contractual obligation, perhaps?), and there is no sense that the game is getting any benefit from the exercise.

Don't take this as an attack, but I'd suggest going back and reading a bunch of the Dev's blogs. I don't have the time to dig up every quote, but I can't count how many times I've specifically read them say that they had ideas, tested them and scrapped them to go back to the drawing board. In fact the latest was they are just starting a new round of play tests to test the kinks they worked out in the last pass. Not many companies will freely admit how often they have had to re-look at their design process or had to scrap ideas. They have been perfectly open with the fact that they are human and that not every idea has panned out. That makes me willing to keep an open mind until I can see the product and judge the project as a whole for myself.


As to the topic of still selling 3E material, I think this is a poor attack on WotC and a general misunderstanding of the business process involved. Yes they announced 4E when they still had a handful of 3E products coming. This couldn't be helped unless they wanted to cease they're entire production and release cycles. However, they have made a huge leap to say that all content after those sources will be Edition Independent (i.e. not reliant on mechanics from either 3E or 4E). The only reason there are still 3E materials coming out is because they have been in the production pipeline for months (up to as many as 6 or more). People seem to forget that you don't write the material, get the art, get it compiled, edited, laid out, printed and shipped in a week. This process takes months to complete. There are enough independent publishers on this site to ask about this process. They will tell you isn't easy nor is it fast. I do however, agree that the newly released True 3E content will not sell well. I think that only those that are hardcore "never leaving 3X" players will bother with them for the most part.

Again, JMHO. YMMV.

 

[Shortman McLeod]

Maybe they would not, because if the game was so succesful in your alternative reality, maybe the game was also better?

I think it is perfectly fine that the designers talk about the weaknesses of D&D 3.5. . . . They try to make clear to us how we will actually benefit from a new edition.

I just think it's funny that in about 6-7 years they'll be doing the exact same thing with 4e. Kind of makes my head spin.

 

[Khaalis]

I don't believe anyone, anywhere, at any point on enworld has ever claimed that "WotC are the devil for wanting profit".

But at least you killed that straw man.

LOL - Not in so many words, but I have read plenty of posts over the years where WotC is cast as the "evil corporate monster" who is all about the money. In fact, for a perfect example, go read the D&DInsider threads. Wow do some people not understand the business world...