D&D 4E David Noonan on 4E "Cloudwatching" (Added Dave's newest comment from his blog)

Shortman McLeod said:
I just think it's funny that in about 6-7 years they'll be doing the exact same thing with 4e. Kind of makes my head spin.
To be honest, I'd say "From your lips to who ever is listening..."

If after another 6-7 years D&D is going so strong and gaming has evolved enough to warrant another revision (and they dont completely botch 4E), I'd say all the more power to them because a) it means D&D is still thriving and hasn't died off and b) D&D is an intellectual property it will always continue to grow, expand, and change over time. So long as the product isn't a botch job like some (can we say Paladium?) then new editions can be a good thing. The only real question is... will 4E fly or flop? We shall see...
 

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Raven Crowking said:
That is the best time to give glimpses, IMHO. Before they are set-in-stone, when they can still be commented on profitably, so that adjustments can be made before they are finalized. In fact, if our observations now can influence the clouds, as Dave suggests, then they should be giving us something to observe, right?



Some tidbits, some information, something concrete =/= "all the cards" (unless this edition is really lame, which I doubt).

RC
You are not to observe the rain that will come, but the clouds that there are now. And this is 3.x and all its supplement, as well as other D20 based WotC products. Point out what you like or dislike there, why you thing that some rules work better or worse than others. That's the kind of input they will use.

I think it would lead to pure madness if they constantly show us their current state of rules and we point out weaknesses or strength as they keep changing things around. It would take forever to sort that mess out. Instead, they point to the more or less stable rule system and ask you do give you feedback to that.

Sure, there might be new issues that neither we nor the designers will see because neither can always see the full picture. But that's what the next edition will be for. (And yes, I think there will a "next" edition, but that doesn't mean I cannot enjoy the edition between.

I just think it's funny that in about 6-7 years they'll be doing the exact same thing with 4e. Kind of makes my head spin.
But we see that all the time. Each year, new products get on the market. Some might in fact be the same as before, but many have improvements in them. It might be a bit easier to see with technical products like cars or computers, because the physical technological advancement is easier to grasp.
(Though we also have a completely different approach to bringing out new products, too - Fashion. A Jacket produced 10 years ago is probably not worse than one produced today, but it looks different, and that alone means that people prefer to buy a new one, even if the functionality hasn't changed)
There is also some kind of technological advancement in RPGs. Much of it might have been trial and error in the past, but as more people are inclined to "run the numbers" of their game, they can actually use mathematical approaches to predict certain issues and solve some problems. Basically, rule design is not only art, it is also parts science.
But there is certainly also a fashion element in it - maybe today, Grim & Gritty is not the main focus, because more like high action fantasy roleplay. But that might change, too, because we get satiated by it, and D&D 5 or SR 5 might feel very different again.
 

Glyfair said:
No, no it's not. I've been involved in playtesting many years and playtesting is almost never discussed, and almost never allowed to be discussed.

I guess those WotC playtest stories are just a figment of my imagination, then. Someone suggested that

They have stated that they pretty much shut the office down for a month just to intensely playtest the game for that month. If that's not "working hard at working all the kinks out internally" then I have no idea what is.​

Clearly that cannot be true, because that would be discussing playtesting.

In this market, playtesting is expected, and discussion of the merits of the game using playtesting as a medium has been a common advertising ploy. It was used for 3.0 (I have the Dragon issues), it was used for 3.5, and it should come to no surprise that it is being used in 4.0.

However, from the 3.0 days, the market has become more sophisticated, particularly due to the rise of message boards such as this. If WotC expects snippets ala 3.0 (which at least contained some meat with its sauce) to generate the same level hype, then they would be well advised that at least some of the customer base expects more useful information upon which to base decisions/reactions.

Upon occasion a company will put out a playtesting report to show people what is going on. But that's not the purpose for the playtesting, it's just making of use of what is there.

I find it highly dubious that WotC doesn't understand the value of playtesting in terms of advertising, as it has consistently shown that it does so.

But that's just me.

(Of course, I also see a large difference between a company allowing the playtesters to release information about the playtest as being different from the company doing so. Because the playtester is under a NDA means absolutely nothing about how the company will use his comments.)

YMMV.

RC
 


Khaalis said:
Actually its not the best time. As we've already seen, if they were to release major parts of the system before they are finalized and they change, people would scream bloody murder "YOU SAID IT WOULD BE X!"

Not the best time IYHO. Not IMHO.

I also, please note, did not say nor imply "major parts of the system".

"Every class will have per day, per encounter, and at will abilities" is a minor tidbit. Given the stir that it has caused, some example of what might be per day, per encounter, and at will could be useful and might allay some fears. (Of course, it might cause others, but at least these would be better justified, and the discussion thereof might lead to a better product!)

RC
 


Mustrum_Ridcully said:
I think it would lead to pure madness if they constantly show us their current state of rules and we point out weaknesses or strength as they keep changing things around.

Good thing that isn't what I said, then, isn't it?
 


I agree with Khaalis.

I also find it odd that there seems to be a tacit assumption that since some people will be unsatisfied and that a perfect system is by definition unattainable, that any sort of improvement is inherently not possible. Certainly, each edition offers changes that many consider unwarranted or unwanted. That's the nature of the beast. But so far, all of the changes that the 4e team has suggested they're working on are appealing to me. How that appeals to the majority of 3e players is unknown.

Many people tore their shirts and cried to the heavens when 3.5 was announced and certainly some refused to move to it. The common allegation was that 3.5 was merely Andy Collins' house rules made official. For my part, it eliminated some house rules I had and simplified some issues for our game. In many ways, 3.5 was just some fixes to 3e and not a full-fledged new edition (hence the moniker...it was essentially errata-plus). I'm assuming what Dave means about playtesting is that a large chunk of the 'new' ideas in 4e are based in whole or part on the concepts already advanced over the last three years. Refining the idea of 'reserve feats', for example, or introducing more advanced options for the fighter.

4e promises to remove some elements that have been core assumptions about D&D and that isn't going to sit well in some quarters. There's nothing wrong with that. And if the fanbase truly dislikes the changes, they will vote with their dollars. I completely left D&D when 2e came out. Not because I thought it was a money grab, but because I didn't like the new edition at all. I moved to GURPS, which scratched my itches much better (and did so for 15 years...right until 3e arrived).

Personally, the idea that since DMs have found their own kludges to fix the holes of 3E (as perceived by each individual DM) means that there should be no need for a new editions seems backwards to me. Just because I've learned to live with a metaphorical limp doesn't mean that I enjoy it and 3E has many issues that simply couldn't be observed until it was created. Further, with differing play styles, group sizes and options, every group's experience (and use of the rules therein) is different. Playtesting is all well and good, but it has it's logical limits. Just as one can only test software on a finite number of hardware and software configurations, one can only due a reasonable due dilligence for a PnP RPG. Anyone who is doing playtesting is under an NDA to not discuss it publicly, but that doesn't mean it's not happening.

Raven Crowking said:
I also, please note, did not say nor imply "major parts of the system".

"Every class will have per day, per encounter, and at will abilities" is a minor tidbit. Given the stir that it has caused, some example of what might be per day, per encounter, and at will could be useful and might allay some fears. (Of course, it might cause others, but at least these would be better justified, and the discussion thereof might lead to a better product!)

You don't consider that change to be a major part of the system? Unless you're asking for detailed specifics, which I don't think they'd want to provide this early. From the D&D Insider site, for example, the newest article says: "Keep in mind that the game is still in a state of flux, as refinements are made by our design and development staff. You’re getting a look behind the curtain at game design in progress, so enjoy, and feel free to send your comments to dndinsider@wizards.com.". As Khaalis pointed out, any details released would be tantamount to a promise of sorts, like a developer of a game promising features it later couldn't deliver.

To be honest, I'm not sure getting feedback from people who don't see any problems with the current iteration of the game really serves WotC's (or my) needs. Quite the opposite, in fact. While the game may be working for them, if they don't see room for improvement and have no interest in a new version of the game, regardless, then I don't know if they'll enrich the playtest process.
 

Raven Crowking said:
They are already "into" the system and would, therefore, be less likely to try it out in ways it was not designed for.

I don't see how this follows at all. Everyone has a different play style. Whether or not someone generally likes what they've heard about 4E so far doesn't change that.

Raven Crowking said:
If that was completely true, we wouldn't keep hearing how Kewl it is from WotC's playtesting.

As has been pointed out, the playtest reports have a completely different purpose than the actual playtesting.
 

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