D&D 4E David Noonan on 4E "Cloudwatching" (Added Dave's newest comment from his blog)

[Doug McCrae]

Once again, it was interesting to note that when 3e was first released, people praised the "logical" and "intuitive" grapple rules, as compared with the admittedly dreadful grapple rules in 2e and 1e.

Now, however, the designers promise to "clean up" grapple. Sigh.

4 > 3 > 2 isn't a contradiction.

 

[Raven Crowking]

Add me to the group that isn't confused by the grappling rules. They're straightforward and easy, and, as you say, only get complex when you start having to adjudicate special cases. However, with a little experience it's all pretty much straightforward.

Houserule changes I made to 3.X grappling: 0.

When it came down to it, I couldn't come up with a better system.

RC

 

[Majoru Oakheart]

Add me to the group that isn't confused by the grappling rules. They're straightforward and easy, and, as you say, only get complex when you start having to adjudicate special cases. However, with a little experience it's all pretty much straightforward.

Really? Cause I can think of a LOT of questions that come up nearly all of the time about grappling and where the articles on the WOTC website "clarifying" the rules seem to say different things than the PHB does. For instance:

A large creature with a BAB of 21 and 2 claws at +26 and a bite at +21 and a grapple modifier of +31.

How many grapple checks does it get per round? What are the bonuses with each grapple check? Can it attack with both claws in one round while in a grapple? Can it also use the bite? Do its attacks get -4 to hit in a grapple? Does haste give it more grapples? Does Bless affect its grapple modifier? Does it provoke an attack of opportunity if it grapples since it has claws? If it is out of the reach of the creature it is grappling does it still provoke the attack of opportunity? Does it do damage on the first round when it establishes the grapple? How much damage is it(the damage of its claws or damage for an unarmed strike based on its size)? If it has Improved Grab does the target it is grappling end up in its square or does it go into the target's square? Does it lose its dex bonus to AC? How about against the creature it's grappling? What is the percent chance of hitting each creature in the grapple with a ranged weapon fired into it?

I know the answer to most of these questions (or at least, I THINK I know the answer to them). However, I can guarantee that if you ask 20 people these questions, it is unlikely that even two of them would answer the same for ALL the questions.

Also, how many of them can you answer without consulting the book each time to look them up?

 

[Raven Crowking]

How many grapple checks does it get per round? What are the bonuses with each grapple check? Can it attack with both claws in one round while in a grapple? Can it also use the bite? Do its attacks get -4 to hit in a grapple? Does haste give it more grapples? Does Bless affect its grapple modifier? Does it provoke an attack of opportunity if it grapples since it has claws? If it is out of the reach of the creature it is grappling does it still provoke the attack of opportunity? Does it do damage on the first round when it establishes the grapple? How much damage is it(the damage of its claws or damage for an unarmed strike based on its size)? If it has Improved Grab does the target it is grappling end up in its square or does it go into the target's square? Does it lose its dex bonus to AC? How about against the creature it's grappling? What is the percent chance of hitting each creature in the grapple with a ranged weapon fired into it?

I know the answer to most of these questions (or at least, I THINK I know the answer to them).

Answer them, please. I'm curious to know if I have house rules that I don't know about!

(That was serious, btw, because from your questions, I suspect that I do.)


RC

 

[ThirdWizard]

I'm probably going to make myself look like an idiot, but whatever!
No books and no calculator.

How many grapple checks does it get per round?

4

What are the bonuses with each grapple check?

+31/+26/+21/+16

Can it attack with both claws in one round while in a grapple?

No?

Can it also use the bite?

As "attack with a natural weapon" or some such , it can.

Do its attacks get -4 to hit in a grapple?

No, natural weapons are light weapons.

Does haste give it more grapples?

No, it is not taking the full attack action.

Does Bless affect its grapple modifier?

No, a grapple is not an attack. Though this might be debatable... was there a Weapon Focus (grapple) or was that one of the joke things like Weapon Specialization (Net). I'm going with joke, not real, for the No answer. *crosses fingers*

Does it provoke an attack of opportunity if it grapples since it has claws?

Unless it has Improved Grapple or Improved Grab, Yes it will.

If it is out of the reach of the creature it is grappling does it still provoke the attack of opportunity?

No. You can't attack something you... can't attack.

Does it do damage on the first round when it establishes the grapple?

If it has a special ability. None listed so, No. HOWEVER, it can make multiple grapple attempts. This might qualify for a Yes answer if you just mean can it do damage on the first round when it establishes the grapple.

How much damage is it(the damage of its claws or damage for an unarmed strike based on its size)?

Damage for a grapple is unarmed strike based on size for "damage with a grapple" or some such bullet point.

If it has Improved Grab does the target it is grappling end up in its square or does it go into the target's square?

The target is moved into its face. This is distinct from if it doesn't have that ability in which case, the grappler must move into the target's face. (Note, I like using the term "face" for this because grapplers too involve larger than Medium creatures.)

Does it lose its dex bonus to AC?

It loses its Dex bonus to AC only versus opponents who it is not grappling. It can take a -20 penalty to its grapple check to keep its Dex bonus to AC, however.

How about against the creature it's grappling?

Answered above.

What is the percent chance of hitting each creature in the grapple with a ranged weapon fired into it?

Tricksy hobbits!! That isn't defined in the rules. There is merely a chance, and the DM is free to use whatever chance he or she deems worthy.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

A large creature with a BAB of 21 and 2 claws at +26 and a bite at +21 and a grapple modifier of +31.

How many grapple checks does it get per round? What are the bonuses with each grapple check?

Up to 4. +31 / +26 / +21 / +16.

Can it attack with both claws in one round while in a grapple? Can it also use the bite?

No, it cannot. If it wishes to attack its opponent with a claw attack, it must choose the "Attack Your Opponent" grapple option, which limits it to a single light weapon. Furthermore, you cannot gain iterative attacks with a natural weapon, so if it decided to attack with a claw, it could only attack once.

Do its attacks get -4 to hit in a grapple?

Yes (again, so long as it selects the "Attack Your Opponent" grapple action and not the "Damage Your Opponent" grapple action.

Does haste give it more grapples?

Haste specifically grants "When making a full attack action, a hasted creature may make one extra attack with any weapon he is holding." Technically, a grapple is not a weapon you hold (nor, for that matter, is a claw).

I've pretty much always allowed it to work, however.

Does Bless affect its grapple modifier?

Bless provides a morale bonus on attack rolls, and therefore does not apply to things which are like attack rolls. So, no.

Does it provoke an attack of opportunity if it grapples since it has claws?

Depends on whether or not it has Improved Grab, but the general case is that yes, it does.

If it is out of the reach of the creature it is grappling does it still provoke the attack of opportunity?

You must be threatened in order to provoke an AoO. If no one threatens you (even if the action you are about to perform involves the other creature's space, like grapple or sunder) then you provoke no AoOs.

Does it do damage on the first round when it establishes the grapple? How much damage is it(the damage of its claws or damage for an unarmed strike based on its size)?

Yes; it always does unarmed damage based on its size - unless it has an ability which states otherwise (like Improved Grab or Constrict).

If it has Improved Grab does the target it is grappling end up in its square or does it go into the target's square?

A creature with Improved Grab may pull the target into its square.

Does it lose its dex bonus to AC? How about against the creature it's grappling?

Yes, against anyone not involved in the grapple, unless it elects to take a -20 penalty on all grapple checks. It also ceases to threaten an area.

What is the percent chance of hitting each creature in the grapple with a ranged weapon fired into it?

Trick question. When makin a ranged attack into a grapple, you are to "determine randomly" which target is hit.

The exact method for that determination is left out of the rules, but most people either do a straight percentage chance (3 targets = 33% chance of each) or a chance based on size (1 Large + 2 Medium = 50% for the Large, 25% for each Medium).

I know the answer to most of these questions (or at least, I THINK I know the answer to them). However, I can guarantee that if you ask 20 people these questions, it is unlikely that even two of them would answer the same for ALL the questions.

... especially if one of them writes the Rules of the Game [grumble, grumble, grumble].

Also, how many of them can you answer without consulting the book each time to look them up?

I did not look at the book at all. I consulted the SRD for the exact quote on the Haste spell rather than paraphrasing.

 

[zoroaster100]

I find the 3.5 grapple rules logical and useable. Though I'm open to the possibility of a better grappling system, as long as it remains fun and flexible or even better, if it makes it easier to adjudicate fairly the crazy stunts players try and fair use of such stunts by the DM for the monsters.

 

[Agamon]

Do you actually believe that the playtesting and/or message board comments will have any impact on the game, at this late date?

Erm, yes? Dave Noonan has stated he's currently playtesting a social challenge system that may or may not make the final game. Words in a book are a lot easier to change than code in a complex video game.

 

[Agamon]

According to David Noonan, they're also going to include a clause preventing people from even admitting that they are playtesters. I believe that this was done in previous playtests as well.

Not 3E. The first thing I thought when I read that playtesters can't even admit that they are playtesting was, "Well, that's quite different from 8 years ago..."

I remember the main playtest posters at Eric's site were pretty good at giving answers that were interesting but really answered nothing.

 

[Glyfair]

Not 3E. The first thing I thought when I read that playtesters can't even admit that they are playtesting was, "Well, that's quite different from 8 years ago..."

I remember the main playtest posters at Eric's site were pretty good at giving answers that were interesting but really answered nothing.

Were you a playtester? Did you see the NDA? I'm curious.

I suspect that the NDA for 3E was pretty much as described. I think WotC just decided not to crack down hard on the violators (when they could figure out who they were). In fact, for all we know the violators that were found out were dropped from the playtesting program immediately.

An alternative is that WotC actually had a handful of trusted playtesters they told to leak certain details. I think that's very unlikely, but barely possible. I've heard gamers speculate that it happens, but I know of cases where some speculated it when I know it wasn't the case (since the playtester was promptly dropped from the playtesting program).