David Noonens blog and D&D 4e's roles.

[jgerman]

Noonan's involvement in the story localization for Aion is one of the reasons I am so intrigued by this new MMO. I was impressed that they hired a real professional.

Ok I'm curious... other games don't hire professionals? Or they're not real professionals?

 

[ruemere]

Noonan's involvement in the story localization for Aion is one of the reasons I am so intrigued by this new MMO. I was impressed that they hired a real professional.

Warning: a little off-topic.

Aion client is said to pack Nprotect's Gameguard, one of the most invasive, badly written, system unfriendly anti-bot applications ever.

Suffice to say that your system or peripherals does not meet certain criteria's, you may expect stuff like blue screens, random hangups/slowdowns, memroy leaks, USB devices losing functionality and so on.
Oh, and earlier versions of Gameguard opened your system for hackers.

You were warned.

Regards,
Ruemere

 

[TerraDave]

A blast from the recent past!

I still remember those good old days, when every scrap of 4E news was a source of excitement, and he was one of the best sources.

 

[I'm A Banana]

Here you see nothing of the roles discussed.

I think it's interesting that the roles are really reflective of what the game expects you to do. The roles in D&D are combat roles (and in MMO's they are the same). In WHFRP, the roles are more skill-based (soldiers do the beating, thieves do the sneaking, scribes do the researching, beggars hope they roll better next time). You're not expected to fight that often -- only about as often as you would sneak or research.

In 4e, there's no "skill monkey." There's no real division of skill labor. Everyone is expected to fight, and mostly fight, to distinguish themselves.

It is one of the issues with the edition, in my mind, though the roles do a great job of distinguishing combat abilities.

 

[Stoat]

To what extent do early D&D "roles" arise from tabletop wargaming? To what extent were there combat roles in tabletop wargaming c. 1970? I don't know, but I'd be curious to learn.

 

[malraux]

To what extent do early D&D "roles" arise from tabletop wargaming? To what extent were there combat roles in tabletop wargaming c. 1970? I don't know, but I'd be curious to learn.

I wouldn't expect to see such things in wargaming. All wargames I have seen use a points method. In those, there isn't a reason to make wizards weak and frail, but to make them worth more points.

 

[Stoat]

I wouldn't expect to see such things in wargaming. All wargames I have seen use a points method. In those, there isn't a reason to make wizards weak and frail, but to make them worth more points.

I'm only familiar with Warhammer, but I see the division of troops into "infantry", "archers", "cavalry" and "artillery" as analogous to RPG combat roles. (Although obviously infantry/archery/cavalary/artillery don't map to defender/striker/leader/controller).

Noonan seems to be arguing that combat roles arose more or less accidentally out of Gygax's desire to be "simulationist". I'm curious if they were created more deliberately, perhaps inspired by tabletop wargaming.

 

[diaglo]

i find his explanation of the cleric class wrong.


gold
god
glory


if he were a wargamer first. he would realize those are the big 3 Gees.

the cleric is one of the Gees.


and as one of the Gees. the class is one of the reasons to adventure and to explore. conversion of the masses to your god's faith.

clerics were also (until the paladin came along) the guardians of alignment.

and all alignment is a delineation of sides in a conflict. a wargaming concept.


the idea that the cleric is a "simulationists" wish to hurry along healing is for the guy, in this case David Noonan's, weak grasp of the full class.

 

[Storminator]

I'm only familiar with Warhammer, but I see the division of troops into "infantry", "archers", "cavalry" and "artillery" as analogous to RPG combat roles. (Although obviously infantry/archery/cavalary/artillery don't map to defender/striker/leader/controller).

Noonan seems to be arguing that combat roles arose more or less accidentally out of Gygax's desire to be "simulationist". I'm curious if they were created more deliberately, perhaps inspired by tabletop wargaming.

I've always seen wizards as artillery, with spells analogous to ammunition. There's definitely been roles in warfare and wargames since the dawn of time.

I got the impression Noonan was discussing the origins of the specific roles we ended up with, not roles in general.

PS

 

[filthgrinder]

i find his explanation of the cleric class wrong.
gold
god
glory
if he were a wargamer first. he would realize those are the big 3 Gees.
the cleric is one of the Gees.
and as one of the Gees. the class is one of the reasons to adventure and to explore. conversion of the masses to your god's faith.
clerics were also (until the paladin came along) the guardians of alignment.
and all alignment is a delineation of sides in a conflict. a wargaming concept.

the idea that the cleric is a "simulationists" wish to hurry along healing is for the guy, in this case David Noonan's, weak grasp of the full class.

I think you made a fundamental misreading of David's point. He's not talking about the existence of the Cleric as a class, but the idea of a "healer". The idea of a cleric would have been a lightly armored mace swinging religious warrior. A religious worshiper and "guardian of alignment" actually has nothing to do with a "cure light wounds" spell. Healing is what made a cleric a "must have" and an essential party member, and what lead to "healer" as being an essential role.

A cleric can do everything you mentioned, but not have any healing abilities. It is only through so many years that the healing notion has been ground into the class. David is looking at how definite party roles came about, and he is musing around about some ideas which lead to the current layout.

Remember, these roles weren't specifically called out previously, but they were assumed by the players. A normal party expects an armored fighter to stand in front and protect the squishies. They expect a cleric or someone else to dispense heals and buff, and they expect the other to be able to fire off damage. Since these roles weren't explicitly pointed out, but were adopted by most people playing, it is interesting to find out why they came out the way they did. David has some interesting thoughts on the matter. Right or wrong, they are interesting to think about.