Dawnforge preview
- Thread starter Brother Shatterstone
- Start date
Wisdom Penalty
First Post
thank you.
looking forward to this one.
W.P.
looking forward to this one.
W.P.
Knightfall
World of Kulan DM
just read the preview... very excited about Dawnforge. 
blackshirt5
First Post
Agreed, very excited about this.
Tarrasque Wrangler
First Post
Very interesting preview. I especially liked the sidebars which have legends about the world's history (the current world) from the point of view of someone many generations later in history. Nice touch.
Eh...its a pretty generic high--fantasy environment who's one niche is that there aren't many significant 'lost civilizations'. I would have to see the rules material to be sure, but it comes off as a bit bland. But on the plus side the presentation looks nice.
I come with an ingrained bias against any third-party campaign settings, and even most Wotc ones. I would consider an FR campaign simply because the place names would hold a some significance for the players and encourage their participation. Most settings simply don't have that scale and popularity.
I come with an ingrained bias against any third-party campaign settings, and even most Wotc ones. I would consider an FR campaign simply because the place names would hold a some significance for the players and encourage their participation. Most settings simply don't have that scale and popularity.
Grompi
First Post
Oi!
I be really grateful ta Fantasy Flight for releasin' previews the way they do, though a Dawnforge preview seems overdue. In the case o' Dawnforge, I be grateful 'cause now I know not ta buy the thing (unlike the preview o' Path of the Sword). When I saw the ad for Dawnforge in Dragon, I thought. "Cool, someone's goin' to do a "Bronze Age" type o' game with a young world". The preview shows that this isn't the case.
Let's see a few reasons why I feel that way:
1) With a sparse sense o' "real culture", the lands seem to be just as generic (and Eurocentric) as those in the Forgotten Realms' older incarnations (before Rashemen, Thay, and other easterly or southerly civilizations took form). The Table o' Contents and race list is indicative that purchasers o' Dawnforge will get few distinctive human cultures (4 races, very little space devoted to any human land, besides Anderland). In fact, there seems to be no real evolution o' culture (and technology) at all, except through cataclysm, much like Forgotten Realms. This whole preview reads as if we'll pretty much be gettin' Forgotten Realms before the fall o' the great old empires. In other words, generic.
2) Ancient woodland elven land (generic D&D, Tolkien, and so forth) called Sildanyr (a little too much like Sildeyuir o' the Star Elves from Forgotten Realms, if ye ask me.)
3) "Night elves" (read drow, actually called drow in one place) (generic D&D, Everquest, and so forth) before their sunderin' from high-elven kind. Strangely, they still have dark skin and white hair—that much is original, at least in its timin' (generic drow gain that coloration upon their "fall"). They are misled by the Spider Queen (generic D&D, Forgotten Realms, Green Ronin's Plot & Poison), though she doesn't exist in that form yet, it seems. She's a goddess (?) named Lathail.
4) A yuan-ti jungle empire (done by everyone in some form or another, from Green Ronin's serpent people in Freeport to the Forgotten Realms and Greyhawk). O' course, serpent folk, with their twisted and wicked culture, are from older fantasy literature, but so are most other D&D "trademarks". Thinbloods seem to be a convenient way o' makin' yuan-ti a PC race, since every other yuan-ti be way too powerful for a 1st-level character.
5) A vast, mountain kingdom o' dwarves, before their inevitable defeat and diaspora (generic everythin', rooted in Toliken's Moria story). In fact, the "Fall of Grimhal" is the Moria story. (The sunken empire o' Valhedar is Atlantis or the fall o' Numenor). The "Storm King" o' giants (not unlike the Storm Lord o' Dungeon #93) and their battle with dwarven kind. The average giant is much more powerful than the average dwarf (I know, I used to be one). Why aren't the dwarves wiped out? Why are they only fighting the dwarves?
6) An "unexplored" land to the west, which is a very old concept, but also extremely Eurocentric. The natives o' that land certainly do not consider it unexplored or even unexploited. Tamerland, we see, is supposedly the home o' the doppelgangers, who have made themselves the enemies o' the eastern empires and are mistrusted at best (very Palladium RPG). Do the doppelgangers have a society and culture? Where are their cities, and why weren't they discovered on the coast o' Tamerland? What does it mean to say dragons "infest" the mountains o' Tamerland? If they infest the mountains, why don't they rule the continent? O' course, since infest means to inhabit or overrun in enough numbers so as to be harmful or threatening, that could be like, what, three to ten dragons?
7) "Minotaurs are cunning and brutal, but their honor keeps them from marauding across Ambria in a swath of bloody destruction." Honor? Ye mean like Dragonlance minotaurs? Elsewhere it says the minotaurs are thralls o' giantkind. The racial mechanics o' the minotaur seem to indicate that the PCs o' Dawnforge will be at a power scale that is beyond the scale o' current D&D (they get racial talents and abilities while gaining levels in a non-racial class, like fighter). Without critiquing the mechanics, which seem a little strange, does this mean that most o' the mechanics lend themselves to high-powered fantasy? The introduction seems to indicate tis so. So, my wariness is peaked, because if I don't want to play in Dawnforge, will I still be able to use the mechanics? O' course, I'd be a fool to buy this book just for the mechanics, for they make up only about a third o' the content.
8) Legendary classes. Legendary classes. (Sic, repeated material from other books?)
Forgive my backhanded insult, but it's a tribute to the marketing skill o' the writers here that they were able to get something this cliché into the semifinal round o' the WotC contest. Forgive my arrogance and (perhaps) uninformed judgment, but it's also clear to me why it didn't get the final vote. If Arcana Unearthed was entered into the latter contest, it certainly deserved more attention than Dawnforge, even though it too has a few things that are a little too generic. I pray Eberron is better.
Thanks again for the previews. Saved me some coin, ye did.
I personally don't know why anyone would buy a generic fantasy setting like Dawnforge, Morningstar, or even Eberron. Isn't Forgotten Realms enough? At least Dragonlance has a fan base (an old one, with money now) it can rely upon for some revenue and War Craft has the video game market from which to pull.
Nevertheless, I wish all o' these publishers well on their campaign-world endeavors.
>;P>
I be really grateful ta Fantasy Flight for releasin' previews the way they do, though a Dawnforge preview seems overdue. In the case o' Dawnforge, I be grateful 'cause now I know not ta buy the thing (unlike the preview o' Path of the Sword). When I saw the ad for Dawnforge in Dragon, I thought. "Cool, someone's goin' to do a "Bronze Age" type o' game with a young world". The preview shows that this isn't the case.
Let's see a few reasons why I feel that way:
1) With a sparse sense o' "real culture", the lands seem to be just as generic (and Eurocentric) as those in the Forgotten Realms' older incarnations (before Rashemen, Thay, and other easterly or southerly civilizations took form). The Table o' Contents and race list is indicative that purchasers o' Dawnforge will get few distinctive human cultures (4 races, very little space devoted to any human land, besides Anderland). In fact, there seems to be no real evolution o' culture (and technology) at all, except through cataclysm, much like Forgotten Realms. This whole preview reads as if we'll pretty much be gettin' Forgotten Realms before the fall o' the great old empires. In other words, generic.
2) Ancient woodland elven land (generic D&D, Tolkien, and so forth) called Sildanyr (a little too much like Sildeyuir o' the Star Elves from Forgotten Realms, if ye ask me.)
3) "Night elves" (read drow, actually called drow in one place) (generic D&D, Everquest, and so forth) before their sunderin' from high-elven kind. Strangely, they still have dark skin and white hair—that much is original, at least in its timin' (generic drow gain that coloration upon their "fall"). They are misled by the Spider Queen (generic D&D, Forgotten Realms, Green Ronin's Plot & Poison), though she doesn't exist in that form yet, it seems. She's a goddess (?) named Lathail.
4) A yuan-ti jungle empire (done by everyone in some form or another, from Green Ronin's serpent people in Freeport to the Forgotten Realms and Greyhawk). O' course, serpent folk, with their twisted and wicked culture, are from older fantasy literature, but so are most other D&D "trademarks". Thinbloods seem to be a convenient way o' makin' yuan-ti a PC race, since every other yuan-ti be way too powerful for a 1st-level character.
5) A vast, mountain kingdom o' dwarves, before their inevitable defeat and diaspora (generic everythin', rooted in Toliken's Moria story). In fact, the "Fall of Grimhal" is the Moria story. (The sunken empire o' Valhedar is Atlantis or the fall o' Numenor). The "Storm King" o' giants (not unlike the Storm Lord o' Dungeon #93) and their battle with dwarven kind. The average giant is much more powerful than the average dwarf (I know, I used to be one). Why aren't the dwarves wiped out? Why are they only fighting the dwarves?
6) An "unexplored" land to the west, which is a very old concept, but also extremely Eurocentric. The natives o' that land certainly do not consider it unexplored or even unexploited. Tamerland, we see, is supposedly the home o' the doppelgangers, who have made themselves the enemies o' the eastern empires and are mistrusted at best (very Palladium RPG). Do the doppelgangers have a society and culture? Where are their cities, and why weren't they discovered on the coast o' Tamerland? What does it mean to say dragons "infest" the mountains o' Tamerland? If they infest the mountains, why don't they rule the continent? O' course, since infest means to inhabit or overrun in enough numbers so as to be harmful or threatening, that could be like, what, three to ten dragons?
7) "Minotaurs are cunning and brutal, but their honor keeps them from marauding across Ambria in a swath of bloody destruction." Honor? Ye mean like Dragonlance minotaurs? Elsewhere it says the minotaurs are thralls o' giantkind. The racial mechanics o' the minotaur seem to indicate that the PCs o' Dawnforge will be at a power scale that is beyond the scale o' current D&D (they get racial talents and abilities while gaining levels in a non-racial class, like fighter). Without critiquing the mechanics, which seem a little strange, does this mean that most o' the mechanics lend themselves to high-powered fantasy? The introduction seems to indicate tis so. So, my wariness is peaked, because if I don't want to play in Dawnforge, will I still be able to use the mechanics? O' course, I'd be a fool to buy this book just for the mechanics, for they make up only about a third o' the content.
8) Legendary classes. Legendary classes. (Sic, repeated material from other books?)
Forgive my backhanded insult, but it's a tribute to the marketing skill o' the writers here that they were able to get something this cliché into the semifinal round o' the WotC contest. Forgive my arrogance and (perhaps) uninformed judgment, but it's also clear to me why it didn't get the final vote. If Arcana Unearthed was entered into the latter contest, it certainly deserved more attention than Dawnforge, even though it too has a few things that are a little too generic. I pray Eberron is better.
Thanks again for the previews. Saved me some coin, ye did.
Isn't anything produced by WotC first-party? If not, how? Do ye mean WotC published or sanctioned, but third-party produced, like Dragonlance?jasamcarl said:
I personally don't know why anyone would buy a generic fantasy setting like Dawnforge, Morningstar, or even Eberron. Isn't Forgotten Realms enough? At least Dragonlance has a fan base (an old one, with money now) it can rely upon for some revenue and War Craft has the video game market from which to pull.
Nevertheless, I wish all o' these publishers well on their campaign-world endeavors.
>;P>
Grompi said:Oi!
I be really grateful ta Fantasy Flight for releasin' previews the way they do, though a Dawnforge preview seems overdue. In the case o' Dawnforge, I be grateful 'cause now I know not ta buy the thing (unlike the preview o' Path of the Sword). When I saw the ad for Dawnforge in Dragon, I thought. "Cool, someone's goin' to do a "Bronze Age" type o' game with a young world". The preview shows that this isn't the case.
Let's see a few reasons why I feel that way:
1) With a sparse sense o' "real culture", the lands seem to be just as generic (and Eurocentric) as those in the Forgotten Realms' older incarnations (before Rashemen, Thay, and other easterly or southerly civilizations took form). The Table o' Contents and race list is indicative that purchasers o' Dawnforge will get few distinctive human cultures (4 races, very little space devoted to any human land, besides Anderland). In fact, there seems to be no real evolution o' culture (and technology) at all, except through cataclysm, much like Forgotten Realms. This whole preview reads as if we'll pretty much be gettin' Forgotten Realms before the fall o' the great old empires. In other words, generic.
2) Ancient woodland elven land (generic D&D, Tolkien, and so forth) called Sildanyr (a little too much like Sildeyuir o' the Star Elves from Forgotten Realms, if ye ask me.)
3) "Night elves" (read drow, actually called drow in one place) (generic D&D, Everquest, and so forth) before their sunderin' from high-elven kind. Strangely, they still have dark skin and white hair—that much is original, at least in its timin' (generic drow gain that coloration upon their "fall"). They are misled by the Spider Queen (generic D&D, Forgotten Realms, Green Ronin's Plot & Poison), though she doesn't exist in that form yet, it seems. She's a goddess (?) named Lathail.
4) A yuan-ti jungle empire (done by everyone in some form or another, from Green Ronin's serpent people in Freeport to the Forgotten Realms and Greyhawk). O' course, serpent folk, with their twisted and wicked culture, are from older fantasy literature, but so are most other D&D "trademarks". Thinbloods seem to be a convenient way o' makin' yuan-ti a PC race, since every other yuan-ti be way too powerful for a 1st-level character.
5) A vast, mountain kingdom o' dwarves, before their inevitable defeat and diaspora (generic everythin', rooted in Toliken's Moria story). In fact, the "Fall of Grimhal" is the Moria story. (The sunken empire o' Valhedar is Atlantis or the fall o' Numenor). The "Storm King" o' giants (not unlike the Storm Lord o' Dungeon #93) and their battle with dwarven kind. The average giant is much more powerful than the average dwarf (I know, I used to be one). Why aren't the dwarves wiped out? Why are they only fighting the dwarves?
6) An "unexplored" land to the west, which is a very old concept, but also extremely Eurocentric. The natives o' that land certainly do not consider it unexplored or even unexploited. Tamerland, we see, is supposedly the home o' the doppelgangers, who have made themselves the enemies o' the eastern empires and are mistrusted at best (very Palladium RPG). Do the doppelgangers have a society and culture? Where are their cities, and why weren't they discovered on the coast o' Tamerland? What does it mean to say dragons "infest" the mountains o' Tamerland? If they infest the mountains, why don't they rule the continent? O' course, since infest means to inhabit or overrun in enough numbers so as to be harmful or threatening, that could be like, what, three to ten dragons?
7) "Minotaurs are cunning and brutal, but their honor keeps them from marauding across Ambria in a swath of bloody destruction." Honor? Ye mean like Dragonlance minotaurs? Elsewhere it says the minotaurs are thralls o' giantkind. The racial mechanics o' the minotaur seem to indicate that the PCs o' Dawnforge will be at a power scale that is beyond the scale o' current D&D (they get racial talents and abilities while gaining levels in a non-racial class, like fighter). Without critiquing the mechanics, which seem a little strange, does this mean that most o' the mechanics lend themselves to high-powered fantasy? The introduction seems to indicate tis so. So, my wariness is peaked, because if I don't want to play in Dawnforge, will I still be able to use the mechanics? O' course, I'd be a fool to buy this book just for the mechanics, for they make up only about a third o' the content.
8) Legendary classes. Legendary classes. (Sic, repeated material from other books?)
Forgive my backhanded insult, but it's a tribute to the marketing skill o' the writers here that they were able to get something this cliché into the semifinal round o' the WotC contest. Forgive my arrogance and (perhaps) uninformed judgment, but it's also clear to me why it didn't get the final vote. If Arcana Unearthed was entered into the latter contest, it certainly deserved more attention than Dawnforge, even though it too has a few things that are a little too generic. I pray Eberron is better.
Thanks again for the previews. Saved me some coin, ye did.
Isn't anything produced by WotC first-party? If not, how? Do ye mean WotC published or sanctioned, but third-party produced, like Dragonlance?
I personally don't know why anyone would buy a generic fantasy setting like Dawnforge, Morningstar, or even Eberron. Isn't Forgotten Realms enough? At least Dragonlance has a fan base (an old one, with money now) it can rely upon for some revenue and War Craft has the video game market from which to pull.
Nevertheless, I wish all o' these publishers well on their campaign-world endeavors.
>;P>
When I said third-party, I was referring to those produced by non-wotc people, thus the 'EVEN Wotc ones'; i.e. I have a bias against both third party and most first party (pretty much everything except FR).
I agree with your sentiment, but many of your points seem a bit nitpicky (citing Palladium Fantasy among them). I have no problems with the roster of cliches, I just wish they would have provided something of an evocative context, or a lot of little eccentricites. FR has this insanely long history with a million littly semi-original tales and events which provides texture. Dawnforge seems so obviously an excersise in top-down world creation that it comes off as bland and in the end unoriginal.
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My main interest is that Dawnforge is hinting that most of the races will be a little more on the powerful side as compared to D&D. While this is no big deal for Minitoars, I'd be curious to see how they up the levels for Elves, Dwarves and Lizardmen in comparison to Tieflings and Dopplegangers.
From my viewpoint, it excites me no more than Forgotten Realms does. Then again, I don't own anything from that setting. So the names of it's particular places don't hold any connitations or attraction for me.
From my viewpoint, it excites me no more than Forgotten Realms does. Then again, I don't own anything from that setting. So the names of it's particular places don't hold any connitations or attraction for me.
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