Dawnforge preview

[Tarrasque Wrangler]

I am nitpicky, but that's where livin' in the dark and havin' a cave bear as the closest thing to a girlfriend will get ya. I know, yer sayin', "But Grompi, most dwarves don't have girlfriends; dwarven females are rare." To that I say, "Too true."

Hmm, a guy adopting the persona of some kind of Scottish-accented dwarf blathering about what is and is not cliche.

 

[Grompi]

Grompi, it's just strange that you have hung around EN World for 6 months, and have just now decided as your first post to come in with a detailed, nitpicky, insulting commentary about a book that you haven't read.

I work two jobs and I just got married. Sue me. And, Wil, one can't be insulted without one's permission, because if there's nothing at fault to defend, there's no reason to be defensive.

Unlike what you now assert, you took shots (yes, took shots) at the book as a whole rather than just the preview. *snip* I'll go ahead and give you some factual refutations and point out where you have either misunderstood the preview or failed to grasp the content within. Contrary to what you say, you did give more than opinions in your post. You told people what they would be getting when they bought the book.

What part of "Let's see a few reasons why I feel that way:", which began all of the commentary I presented, is ambiguous? That means it's all my opinion and my interpretation, not some laundry list of facts about the book. My ignorant (if that's what they are) assertions about my feelings were a perfect opportunity for someone to tell us more about Dawnforge. Now you have, which is a win-win situation for everyone and it was one of my goals all along.

Before I go down your points one by one, I should say that the most important thing you have failed to grasp is that Dawnforge is a young, young world. *snip* There is nothing ancient in Dawnforge.*snip* There is no sunken empire of Valhedar.

Yes, a young world, I got that. I also got the fact that the world was not yet at the point of the "future" described in the sidebars. Unfortunately, since they're not clearly marked, I did get confused on a couple of points. For that I apologize. Now that I fully comprehend these snippets, they seem to be better ideas.

How many human cultures were there 10,000 years ago? *snip* The kind of cultural evolution you are talking about is not in the scope of this campaign setting where it stands.

Hundreds, I'd guess, if not thousands. But I'm not an archeologist or anthropologist, and your question is probably rhetorical anyway. There were certainly more than four. What I can say with some certaintly is that 10,000 years ago was not the beginning of human culture, though it may have been close to the start of recorded history and the advent of major ancient civilizations. The evolution of civilization seems to be what you're really talking about.

Would it have been better if the elves lived in the mountains and the dwarves in the forest?

Are we playing Sovereign Stone? No? Good. It would be better if you didn't defend your points with simplistic condescension.

I also have a philosophical question for you, since you are a reviewer. At what point is something no longer available for use? In other words, is Plot and Poison as bad as Dawnforge for discussing drow? Is Forgotten Realms as bad as Plot and Poison for featuring drow? Is there any time when a concept can be used more than once without becoming---generic, as you say.

FR practically invented the drow as they now stand (mostly through the work of one man, RA Salvatore). Comparing its use of drow to just about any other work's is comparing apples to oranges. Further, almost every product in the marketplace that includes such creatures is derivative of Slavatore's work. Plot & Poison is about only drow, so its not a campaign setting and it fills a niche in bringing those creatures to the d20 marketplace in a manner that can be reused in OGL material. Again, apples and oranges. Something is always available for use, but that doesn't mean somebody should use it in published material.

Also, the serpent people in Freeport are a: not yuan-ti, and b: do not live in the jungle in an empire. So that comparison is incorrect....

The serpent people of Freeport did indeed have a jungle empire at one time (that is, the ancient history of the world in which they are now found). It was an equatorial (that is, "semi-tropical" per page 13 of Freeport: City of Adventure) "island", larger than many modern countries, called Valossa. To quote page 5 of Freeport: City of Adventure (emphasis mine), "...Valossa was the heart of the empire of the serpent people." The fact that they're not yuan-ti is irrelevant, and the comparison is "correct", as my statement was aimed at "serpent folk" in general, which are all derivative of older works in fantasy literature (like Conan novels).

Ok, so you are saying you would have been more favorably inclined toward the product if Tamerland had been to the east? Weird.

More supercilious remarks. How wonderful. The direction of the "unexplored" continent has no relevance. The real question is, what's already there? If the answer to that is pretty much nothing but monsters, then why?

Are you suggesting that mechanics should not be reused? That is clearly your suggestion about legendary classes, and it makes no sense to me.

Also, you have again propagated a falsehood that there is repeated material in Dawnforge. You have no basis for this, and it is in fact false (outside of a necessary explanation of the LgC mechanics). Do you accept that you have made a false statement? Why would you do so?

Actually, I like legendary classes, and I favor the reprinting of needed rules. I accept your judgment of my statement and again apologize. Maybe I was just too far off my Prozac™ that day. So, the legendary classes in the book are all unique?

It's called a backhanded compliment, actually.

No. You're wrong. It is an insult, and it's an ironic one, and therefore indirect. Therefore, it's a backhanded insult. Let's not argue over semantics though.

The fact that you can't even admit that your opinion is uninformed is indicative of your attitude.

My opinion is uninformed by the reading and comprehension of the entirety of the Dawnforge book. My comments are only about the preview and my thankfulness that I was able to see it before I bought the book. To any who took my earlier comments, in which I mention that I'm only talking about my feelings on the preview and its relevance to my purchasing choices, to be in reference to the whole Dawnforge product, you are mistaken. There. Is that better?

....my conclusion that you are a troll was reasonable and may still be.

I don't really know what a troll is in this context, but trolls and dwarves are related in Scandinavian myth.

Even if it is not the case, I do find your insulting and ignorant commentary about a book you have not read to be distasteful.

My commentary is not insulting in some objective manner, it's insulting to you (for some reason). I'm sorry for that. And to repeat, my comments are clearly labeled as why I feel I won't purchase this book based on two previews (a PDF and a Word doc on minotaurs).

So, if you want your questions answered, it seems reasonable that you would simply read the book.

I will, I assure you. But I'll do so without buying it first. Thank gods for B&N ordering policies, since it's apparent you won't risk sending me one.

I would venture that Wil is familar enough with Dawnforge to give a fair assessment of the work. And it sounded 'unbias' to me, just the facts, ma'am...

It's not possible for Wil to be unbiased. He's one of the authors of the work.

Hmm, a guy adopting the persona of some kind of Scottish-accented dwarf blathering about what is and is not cliche.

Hey, maybe it takes one to know one. Anyway, I didn't aim anything in my posts as a personal attack (whether or not they were taken as such), and certainly none of my negative comments were aimed at you. I'll thank you for ceasing to aim off-topic comments at me.

Thanks again all.

 

[Dirigible]

Yeah when I saw the post count, that's about when I started to question the integrity of the post...

Once upon a time, I suspect you had 1 post to your name, Shatterstone. How much value did your views at that time hold, I wonder?

 

[Scorpio]

"It's not possible for Wil to be unbiased. He's one of the authors of the work."

I am aware of that fact that he is one of the authors. And, Wil simply stated what what was in the book, not an opinion of what was in it, thus, he spoke from an unbiased yet informed point of view.

And so I reitterate, "Just the facts, Ma'am".

 

[d20Dwarf]

"It's not possible for Wil to be unbiased. He's one of the authors of the work."

I am aware of that fact that he is one of the authors. And, Wil simply stated what what was in the book, not an opinion of what was in it, thus, he spoke from an unbiased yet informed point of view.

And so I reitterate, "Just the facts, Ma'am".

Thanks for getting it, Scorpio. I'm not trying to convince anyone, I'm just defending the book against misinformation spread from an uninformed source. People will make up their own minds, some will like it, others won't, and I'm more than happy for it to be that way.

 

[d20Dwarf]

Trying to steer things in a new direction, has anyone looked over the Minotaur preview yet? If so, what are your thoughts on the direction we took with the racial mechanics, or just with the minotaurs themselves?

All opinions welcome, even the patently uninformed.

Here's a link

 

[Grompi]

Once upon a time, I suspect you had 1 post to your name, Shatterstone. How much value did your views at that time hold, I wonder?

Thanks very much for your support, but Brother Shatterstone apologized for his assumptions. That's good enough for me.

Thanks for getting it, Scorpio. I'm not trying to convince anyone, I'm just defending the book against misinformation spread from an uninformed source.

I wonder two things, though. One is why you latched onto only the negative things I said, without even acknowledging the good things. The other is if you read all of my posts, because you certainly didn't respond to everything or any of my acknowledgements of fault. Other people didn't take time to respond to things asked of them either. Is that how discussion works? For example, and I know its not your job to let me know, but I still don't know what "spam an attack" and "troll" mean.

Trying to steer things in a new direction, has anyone looked over the Minotaur preview yet? If so, what are your thoughts on the direction we took with the racial mechanics, or just with the minotaurs themselves?

Am I uninformed if I haven't read the whole book, or does having already read the document you refer to count? (I've cited having read this document already.)

My take:

With the assumption that the racial talents and transformations come as part of advancing in another class (a point made earlier and not refuted), and the purpose of Dawnforge is a young world with Gilgamesh types roaming around (epic types, even at lower levels), then it works. It's especially cool, because my minotaur may well be different than others, even though the usual development seems to be predictable. Level 1: Gore, Level 2: Scent, Level 3: Powerful Charge, Level 4: Natural Armor, Level 5: Second Wind, Level 6: Large, and so on.

Does Large size grant the usual changes in ability scores? Interestingly enough, an 8th-level minotaur is significantly stronger than the one in the MM 9ECL 8), even if the size change offers no ability score changes. That's cool. Lets see:

Character using the minotaur rules (assuming size change doesn't increase ability scores):

Lambi, male minotaur Ftr8: CR 8; Large monstrous humanoid (8 ft., 9 in. tall); HD 8d10+40; hp 81; Init +0; Spd 30 ft.; AC 21 (+8 armor, +3 shield, +1 natural, -1 size), touch 10, flat-footed 22; Base Atk +8; Grap +17; Attack +14 melee (1d12+10/19-20 x3 +1 greataxe), or +8 ranged (1d8+4/x3 composite longbow); Full Atk +14/+9 melee (1d12+10/19-20 x3 +1 greataxe) and +8 (1d8+2 gore), or +8/+3 (1d8+4/x3 composite longbow); SV Fort +11, Ref +4, Will +3; AL CN; Str 20 (+5), Dex 10, Con 20 (+5), Int 10, Wis 13 (+1), Cha 6 (-2).
Languages: Common, Giant
Skills and Feats: Climb +2*, Jump +2*, Intimidate +3, Listen +2, Ride +5, Spot +3, Swim +5*; Blind Fight, Cleave, Improved Critical (greataxe), Improved Unarmed Strike, Lightning Reflexes, Power Attack, Weapon Focus (great axe), Weapon Focus (gore), Weapon Specialization (great axe). (*Includes armor check penalty of –8, Swim includes weight of gear and ring.)
Racial Talents: Gore, Powerful Charge, Second Wind, Talent Feat (Weapon Focus).
Racial Traits: Low-light Vision, Natural Cunning.
Racial Transformations: Large, Monstrous Humanoid, Natural Armor (+1), Scent.
Possessions: +1 half-plate, +1 large steel shield, throwing axes (4, masterwork), composite longbow (masterwork, mighty +4), quiver (14 arrows), ring of swimming (improved), potion of cure serious wounds (3), hew's handy haversack, 433 gp.

(I give permission to reuse Lambi's stats in any way that's legal within the OGL and FFG's claims to Product Identity.)

Shouldn't gore add the full Str bonus when it's the only attack used in a round?

The only thing I don't think works are the start at Medium size with Large size coming as a racial transformation associated with level and not age (or magical influence)—unless that's in the book and not this document. I had a problem with the giant's transformation to Large in Arcana Unearthed, until I found out the transformation is based on a magical ceremony. On another note, also a problem in my opinion about Arcana Unearthed, and a problem with the minotaur is why PC races with natural weapons don't already know how to use those weapons as part of a racial package, especially if their culture is militaristic (favors the fighter class).

With the minotaurs in this document, I wondered why "Natural Cunning: A minotaur can never be lost, is never flat-footed, and is immune to maze spells." wasn't made into a talent (never needs Survival checks to avoid being lost [granting that allowing a party to get lost is rarely a good story element], never suffers one of the most troublesome things about being caught in combat, and is immune to an 8th-level spell) and monstrous humanoid and darkvision just made part of the race. Monstrous humanoid makes the minotaur immune to some minor spells (like charm person), but that's about it. The development of this trait and darkvision later in life just seems kind of weird (without magical intervention). The development of natural cunning later in life doesn't seem weird.

I realize you were probably trying to avoid the infamous level adjustment, but why? A full-fledged minotaur is only LA +2. A watered down version that needs training in, say, the charge, has only 1 or two HD, and no natural cunning could easily be ECL 1 (or 2 with 2 HD), altered (of course) by your powerful character premise in the Dawnforge setting.

That's my two coppers, anyhow. Interesting concepts.

EDIT: Lambi's size penalty/bonus to grapple.

 

[d20Dwarf]

With the assumption that the racial talents and transformations come as part of advancing in another class (a point made earlier and not refuted), and the purpose of Dawnforge is a young world with Gilgamesh types roaming around (epic types, even at lower levels), then it works. It's especially cool, because my minotaur may well be different than others, even though the usual development seems to be predictable. Level 1: Gore, Level 2: Scent, Level 3: Powerful Charge, Level 4: Natural Armor, Level 5: Second Wind, Level 6: Large, and so on.

Does Large size grant the usual changes in ability scores? Interestingly enough, an 8th-level minotaur is significantly stronger than the one in the MM 9ECL 8), even if the size change offers no ability score changes. That's cool. Lets see:

Your assumption is correct. You get racial bonuses based on your character level, not on taking levels in a "racial class."

Large size only grants the listed bonuses and penalties. This is one of those cases where game play must trump the usual monster advancement rules. I think others have gone the same route.

Shouldn't gore add the full Str bonus when it's the only attack used in a round?

I believe that only slam and bite attacks work that way. The minotaur's gore in the MM only gets 1x Str bonus, as does the Formian Warrior's sting (just to take a random example). So, I did it like the minotaur in the MM.

The only thing I don't think works are the start at Medium size with Large size coming as a racial transformation associated with level and not age (or magical influence)—unless that's in the book and not this document. I had a problem with the giant's transformation to Large in Arcana Unearthed, until I found out the transformation is based on a magical ceremony. On another note, also a problem in my opinion about Arcana Unearthed, and a problem with the minotaur is why PC races with natural weapons don't already know how to use those weapons as part of a racial package, especially if their culture is militaristic (favors the fighter class).

This is just another time where I think gameplay trumped other considerations. I wanted some races to get large, but I didn't want to start them off that way. Also, using a "magic ritual" or similar device to increase a creature's size just seems a little cludgy to me.

With the minotaurs in this document, I wondered why "Natural Cunning: A minotaur can never be lost, is never flat-footed, and is immune to maze spells." wasn't made into a talent (never needs Survival checks to avoid being lost [granting that allowing a party to get lost is rarely a good story element], never suffers one of the most troublesome things about being caught in combat, and is immune to an 8th-level spell) and monstrous humanoid and darkvision just made part of the race. Monstrous humanoid makes the minotaur immune to some minor spells (like charm person), but that's about it. The development of this trait and darkvision later in life just seems kind of weird (without magical intervention). The development of natural cunning later in life doesn't seem weird.

I realize you were probably trying to avoid the infamous level adjustment, but why? A full-fledged minotaur is only LA +2. A watered down version that needs training in, say, the charge, has only 1 or two HD, and no natural cunning could easily be ECL 1 (or 2 with 2 HD), altered (of course) by your powerful character premise in the Dawnforge setting.

I believe none of the races start out with Darkvision in Dawnforge; those that can get it must develop it over time (by selecting it as a racial transformation). Natural cunning was just a decision made, I think it's a cool way to differentiate a base minotaur from, say, a base ogre.

Level adjustments were definitely a no-no, since part of the deal with Dawnforge is building your character's racial characteristics up over time. There was nothing that needed to be given at 1st level that couldn't just be made into a talent or transformation, and I'm happy with that decision. I'm not a big fan of Level Adjusted races and how they work in D&D.

 

[Brother Shatterstone]

Once upon a time, I suspect you had 1 post to your name, Shatterstone. How much value did your views at that time hold, I wonder?

Little to none, and I suspect little has changed in the near thousand and a half post since then.

Also my first post was simply rather or not to sale my 3.0 books not that I had 3.5. Which believe it or not is a tad bit tamer than Grompi's first post.

 

[Dirigible]

Thanks very much for your support, but Brother Shatterstone apologized for his assumptions. That's good enough for me.

I wans't supporting you.

Trying to steer things in a new direction, has anyone looked over the Minotaur preview yet? If so, what are your thoughts on the direction we took with the racial mechanics, or just with the minotaurs themselves?

Before reading the minotaur.doc, from what I'd gathered here I assumed they'd have an ability progression that looked a bit like a Heroic Path.
Nope. Looks like d20 Modern instead. Ultimate difference? A bit more flexible.

Does every race get a Talent tree?

The differene between Talents and Transformations seems kinda arbitrary. A transformation adds 4 feet to his height, but a talent gives him horns (or does it just teach him to use his horns effectivly?)

Oh wait, never mind, I see it now; talents are mental/cultural, transformations are physical.

Err, except the Unbreakable talent tree looks distinctly physical.