Dawnforge preview

[Mark Chance]

Wondering what "scar-ry racial advancement rules" would've looked like

A lot like this!

 

[d20Dwarf]

A lot like this!

Yeah, I'm so glad that the Bad Kitty racial transformation got cut in the final edit. That thing was broken!

 

[blackshirt5]

A lot like this!

That animal is scary.

 

[Morgenstern]

Um, since being large is generally more penalty than benefit, particularly as in this case it is not altering the character's ability scores, why not have the minotaur start out as large (10 ft base) but with only a 5 ft reach, and where they grow larger now, replace that with the combat experience and training to gain a 10 ft. reach. This would be analogous to the gore - they always have horns, but they don't learn to use them effectively right off the bat. The reach is really the bigest advantage, so holding it for later will help keep the balance pretty much even with where it is now, but not creat the weird mental image of them increasing in size...

 

[d20Dwarf]

Um, since being large is generally more penalty than benefit, particularly as in this case it is not altering the character's ability scores, why not have the minotaur start out as large (10 ft base) but with only a 5 ft reach, and where they grow larger now, replace that with the combat experience and training to gain a 10 ft. reach. This would be analogous to the gore - they always have horns, but they don't learn to use them effectively right off the bat. The reach is really the bigest advantage, so holding it for later will help keep the balance pretty much even with where it is now, but not creat the weird mental image of them increasing in size...

The minotaur then starts out with a -1 penalty to AC and attack rolls and the inability to negotiate tight spaces, and he doesn't get anything in return until, and if, he decides to take the 10 ft. reach/large weapon use transformation. I think that creates something of a problem for the minotaur character, especially if you are making a sorcerer or some other class that doesn't really benefit from the reach.

Since characters start out young, I don't see why a growth spurt is so unimaginable. Some minotaurs simply grow larger than others, maybe there are two types of minotaurs, X and Y. X grows to a very large size and is a great fighter, whereas Y minotaurs don't grow quite so big.

 

[Morgenstern]

The minotaur then starts out with a -1 penalty to AC and attack rolls and the inability to negotiate tight spaces, and he doesn't get anything in return...

Exactly my point . Penalties define a race as much or more than advantages - all the ways your character is different from the base-line of humans, not just a list of all the ways they're better than humans. The Large character would also get a bonus to encumberance I believe . With a solid, tangible set of penalties like that, I'd be ok with them getting Darkvision at the begining, myself, though I did read that you've made it a feature of the world that nobody starts with it, and you have to work to gain it.

...until, and if, he decides to take the 10 ft. reach/large weapon use transformation.

Again, if I've read correctly, the gain of reach wouldn't be a transformation ~ the arms were always X-number of feet long, just now the minotaur knows how to use that reach to good effect in combat (putting it in your other category of improvemnts).

I think that creates something of a problem for the minotaur character, especially if you are making a sorcerer or some other class that doesn't really benefit from the reach.

It doesn't strike you as incredibly pat and convienient that Minotaur sorcerers are always physical runts, and if the explination is adolesence, that after 20 levels they NEVER grow up just because they don't think that reach would be enough to their advantage to ofset the penalties of achievving the 'mature' size? That is a little too meta-game for my blood . If you are playing a minotaur, don't dance around the 7'11" vs. 8'0" threshold - be large and revel in it or suck it up, but don't pull a Peter Pan just because there's a game mechanic penalty...

Since characters start out young, I don't see why a growth spurt is so unimaginable.

Two reasons. One, because making low level absolutely indicate youth is IMO poor design. What happens to the 45 year old minotaur that's lead a quiet life until now (low XP/level) and is forced into action because Dwarves burned his village (or something)? He never grew up because he never adventured? Two, because the reverse case is equally bizzare - characters that don't persue combat-oriented carrers never 'grow up' by that standard, because the option is in the hands of the player, not the biological clock (which waits for no minotaur )...

Some minotaurs simply grow larger than others...

...making this the first race to straddle two size categories irrespective of hit dice.

...maybe there are two types of minotaurs, X and Y. X grows to a very large size and is a great fighter, whereas Y minotaurs don't grow quite so big.

But both are indistinguishable until those fighting bouts trigger hormones that cause them to spurt up? I can imagine a biological reason, but it seems like a lot of work just to just to justify a pretty heavily meta-game oriented decision. If they have different colors of fur, and you know darn well that the grey-furred kids are gonna grow up to be especially big, then sure, training all of those kids to be fighty-types makes sense. But, that implies the decision to take the "grows to Large size" option was made even before level 1. In fact, I'd expect it to be folded into the race description, and have two sub-races for brown fur and grey (or whatever). But, if they are indistinguishable or if the choice doesn't have to be made (in fact can't be made) until well into your minotaur's adventuring career, I'd just be a little nervous about how uncannily often the choice will be made the precisely matches up with the mechanically best fit to the class level you have at that point.

Making them always Large (but not always far reaching) gets you away from questions of juvinality, provides a balancing element for bonuses that would make them distinct from low level ogres (I believe that was a concern mentioned earlier), and scoot around all the questions of sub-species and growth surges in one swell foop. I gather the book is off to the printers already, so I'm just arging theoretically (*scribles down notes for future products of his own*), but size category changes mid-game make me nervous, so I would tend to implement Large races differently.

 

[Grompi]

The minotaur then starts out with a -1 penalty to AC and attack rolls and the inability to negotiate tight spaces, and he doesn't get anything in return until, and if, he decides to take the 10 ft. reach/large weapon use transformation. I think that creates something of a problem for the minotaur character, especially if you are making a sorcerer or some other class that doesn't really benefit from the reach.

Since characters start out young, I don't see why a growth spurt is so unimaginable. Some minotaurs simply grow larger than others, maybe there are two types of minotaurs, X and Y. X grows to a very large size and is a great fighter, whereas Y minotaurs don't grow quite so big.

While I don't agree with the idea that a minotaur should start out Large with none of the bonuses, the point is not that "growth spurts" are "unimaginable". They're just plain goofy and metagame, as are most physical transformations triggered by level gain. If you applied that sort of logic to a dragon, for instance, you could easily have a dragon that is "young" by years (16-25) but had the powers of a much older dragon. It just doesn't work, unless there is a mitagating, in-game source for the transformation (like the influence of magic). (Savage Species actually went one worse by requiring a creature to only gain levels in its own monster class until all of the levels were fulfilled.)

Once again, psychological benefits are easy to justify as part of an experience ladder, particularly when they're more powerful than the benefits gained by being Large (like natural cunning definitely is, considering you only gain reach from the Large transformation), and doubly so when all the Large gives you is a 10 ft. reach. This isn't seriously dangerous until someone pairs it with a High Dex (12+) and Combat Reflexes, especially if the natural cunning ability that prevents the character from being flat-footed is gained at higher level (say 6th+).

The "maybe there are two types of minotaurs" defense is really a nonviable one, unless the description of your world in Dawnforge includes two types. Does it? You also said earlier that others may have taken the same tack (giving physical abilities outside the normal monster advancement rules), but that fact doesn't make the practice a good idea even if it's done by an "official" source.

What we're really dealing with here is the problematic nature of a "binary" system. In D&D, you either have an ability, or you don't ... it's difficult (even for game designers, apparently) to simulate natural growth towards an ability.

 

[d20Dwarf]

Once again, psychological benefits are easy to justify as part of an experience ladder, particularly when they're more powerful than the benefits gained by being Large (like natural cunning definitely is, considering you only gain reach from the Large transformation), and doubly so when all the Large gives you is a 10 ft. reach. This isn't seriously dangerous until someone pairs it with a High Dex (12+) and Combat Reflexes, especially if the natural cunning ability that prevents the character from being flat-footed is gained at higher level (say 6th+).

Actually the other benefit you gain is being able to handle larger weapons, which deal a lot more damage and still allow you to wield a normal-size weapon as a secondary or bolster your AC with a shield.

The "maybe there are two types of minotaurs" defense is really a nonviable one, unless the description of your world in Dawnforge includes two types. Does it? You also said earlier that others may have taken the same tack (giving physical abilities outside the normal monster advancement rules), but that fact doesn't make the practice a good idea even if it's done by an "official" source.

What we're really dealing with here is the problematic nature of a "binary" system. In D&D, you either have an ability, or you don't ... it's difficult (even for game designers, apparently) to simulate natural growth towards an ability.

This is astute, it is difficult to grant new abilities like this in this system. But, that doesn't stop us meddling game designers from trying. The fact that one of the authors of the game has also experimented along these lines makes me feel more comfortable doing so, even if you don't agree with my method.

As for my non-viable suggestion, I didn't put much serious thought into it since I prefer to work from a "playability first" philosophy when designing game mechanics. I'll leave it to individuals to tailor the mechanics to their role-playing, or "realism", tastes.

Still, interesting discussion.

 

[Grompi]

Actually the other benefit you gain is being able to handle larger weapons, which deal a lot more damage and still allow you to wield a normal-size weapon as a secondary or bolster your AC with a shield.

The mean damage for that Huge greataxe is a lot more, around +4 points (mean for Large greataxe [1d12] is 6-7, while the Huge one [3d6] is 10-11). In simple terms, that's two dead commoners! Too bad Cleave doesn't let you carry over damage. I hadn't considered this angle.

This is astute, it is difficult to grant new abilities like this in this system. But, that doesn't stop us meddling game designers from trying. The fact that one of the authors of the game has also experimented along these lines makes me feel more comfortable doing so, even if you don't agree with my method.

Well, looks like I can be astute sometimes , other times I'm interpreting meaty "future-history" sidebars as present-day campaign material and spouting off slanderous drek about it. Happens to the worst of us (that is, me), I guess.

I didn't agree with Monte either (assuming that's who you're talkin about). The blow was cushioned when I saw how magical Arcana Unearthed was supposed to be, and the fact that the giant culture was so steeped in ritual. The Large size comes from that, so it "feels" better to me (not cludgy). *shrug* Different strokes for different folks.

Seriously though, don't you think Natural Cunning for the minotaur is pretty powerful? Further, couldn't it have made a good "racial transformation"?

Do you think that the natural armor ability could have been made in a +2 spurt followed by +1 stacks?

I'll leave it to individuals to tailor the mechanics to their role-playing, or "realism", tastes.

Wise words, but don't you think the game world should provide a way to do this with minimum fuss? I mean, of course I can take my Dawnforge minotaurs and switch Large for Natural Cunning. Maybe its my conceit again... what I want is what everyone else wants.

In the end, let's focus on what I said at the begining, though. The minotaur's not bad, and I like the way you've handled the powers of the race developing in a "powerful" high fantasy. Of course, I need to see how your elves and humans compare.

Uh-oh, methinks I'm learning to be civil.

 

[d20Dwarf]

Uh-oh, methinks I'm learning to be civil.

Must be a troll racial talent.