Dawnforge preview

[d20Dwarf]

Oh wait, never mind, I see it now; talents are mental/cultural, transformations are physical.

Err, except the Unbreakable talent tree looks distinctly physical.

Yeah, that one is borderline. The gore is meant to just be training in using your horns in combat. Like with some other things, the Unbreakable tree is a Talent tree for game reasons.

 

[Mark Chance]

And so I reitterate, "Just the facts, Ma'am".

If it makes anyone feel any better, I've also read the book, am one of its authors, and Wil's presentation is pretty much dead on target. And, for the record, I am not unbiased given that I am one of my harshest critics.

 

[Tzeentch]

Thanks for getting it, Scorpio. I'm not trying to convince anyone, I'm just defending the book against misinformation spread from an uninformed source. People will make up their own minds, some will like it, others won't, and I'm more than happy for it to be that way.

-- An author is not an unbiased source. I mean really, how more biased can you actually get with a book? As an author myself you'll have to excuse me if I don't place a lot of stock in the spirited defense of a project by someone that has a very real emotional and economic committment to its success (even if it's just the prospect of future contracts for supplements).
-- Until the book comes out and we can get some actual impartial reviews we are relying on the material that FFG's marketing folks put together to entice us to get the book. That material failed to entice Grumby (and presumably others). Getting snippy about it doesn't make that material look any cooler I'm afraid, and claiming it's actual misinformation is simply hyperbole.
-- If you are truly concerned about people misinterpreting the preview material I suggest bringing this to the attention of your contacts at FFG and let them know some people may be getting the wrong idea about the setting from the current material (lack of context, confusingly sampled text, whatever).
-- IMO it's generally counterproductive to tease prospective customers with your "inside sources" and attack them with information that only people with NDA's can check. I know it annoys me when I'm on the consumer side of things, especially if I was being called a liar by a company representative!

 

[Grompi]

Your assumption is correct. You get racial bonuses based on your character level, not on taking levels in a "racial class."

Definitely not a bad idea, if it's internally balanced. That does seem to make Dawnforge a little more unique, but is it something I couldn't get by using Forgotten Realms' Old Empires and some imagination?

Large size only grants the listed bonuses and penalties. This is one of those cases where game play must trump the usual monster advancement rules.

This is just another time where I think gameplay trumped other considerations. I wanted some races to get large, but I didn't want to start them off that way. Also, using a "magic ritual" or similar device to increase a creature's size just seems a little cludgy to me.

Forgive me if this is taking another shot at your work. Not my intention. It just seems goofy to me for some character to gain a level and "poof" he's Large. This is one small reason why many monster classes in Savage Species simply don't work. At least the magic ritual gives some believeability to the transformation.

Further, natural cunning is more powerful than this form of Large, wherein all one really gets is reach.

I believe that only slam and bite attacks work that way. The minotaur's gore in the MM only gets 1x Str bonus, as does the Formian Warrior's sting (just to take a random example). So, I did it like the minotaur in the MM.

You mean your minotaur gets 1/2 the Str bonus at all times, which is what the minotaur doc reads under gore. The minotaur in the MM does indeed get 1x the Str bonus. These creatures (the minotaur and the formian) get 1/2 Str bonus when the attack is part of their full-attack array. That's just a general rule about a secondary attack.

I believe none of the races start out with Darkvision in Dawnforge; those that can get it must develop it over time (by selecting it as a racial transformation). Natural cunning was just a decision made, I think it's a cool way to differentiate a base minotaur from, say, a base ogre.

Your minotaur is different from a base ogre anyway. Developing darkvision over time is fine (perhaps). Developing it as level-based acquisition is not the same thing as developing over time. It feels wonky to me, much like the Large thing.

Level adjustments were definitely a no-no, since part of the deal with Dawnforge is building your character's racial characteristics up over time. There was nothing that needed to be given at 1st level that couldn't just be made into a talent or transformation, and I'm happy with that decision. I'm not a big fan of Level Adjusted races and how they work in D&D.

I agree that level adjustments are not so good sometimes, but they make sense when defined as: Life is simply easier for this race because of its natural advantages. Members get less "experience" from certain situations because those situations are literally less challenging. Everquest RPG handles this by giving tough races an XP penalty, which also works.

I guess I'm just not a fan of gross, physical characteristics being built up over and inderterminate amount of time (however much time it takes you to get the level at which you develop the trait, which is variable). It just doesn't make sense and seems, to me, to undermine imagination. Now, acquiring psychological characteristics or supernatural powers is a whole other thing. Those are usually fine to build up with experience and easier to imagine being related to experience. The Large thing is like, "Boy, I'll be glad when I kill another few goblins, because then my acne will clear up. I'll be an adult!"

But, that's just me.

>;p>

 

[Tzeentch]

Minotaur

The Minotaur looked pretty good. I think the idea of picking "racial Feats" to increase their abilities is a lot better idea then the, frankly, lame racial levels in Savage Species.

My somewhat off-the-cuff commentary:

-- I assume it was a gameplay fiat to substantially increase the base Intelligence of the Minotaur from -4 to -2? I for one would have a hard time picking a race with a -4 Int even if I was going for the brainless barbarian type
-- Why the addition of -2 to Dexterity? It's not part of the basic 3.5 Minotaur, who have a much better reason to have such a penalty for their Large size.
-- The -2 to Wisdom seems a bit crippling. The original 3.5 -2 to Charisma seems a bit more appropriate as they are "cunning and brutal" and presumably everyone knows this.
-- Suggest maybe modifying the +2 to Spot checks and making it a +2/+2 feat: +2 to Spot and Listen checks (keen sight and hearing). Another alternative is to make it a "half" version of the original that matches the elven racial ability "+2 racial bonus on Listen, Search, and Spot checks." This looks a bit better to me.
-- I would change their attribute modifiers to be more like the 3.5 Minotaur and modify it so they are not just as strong as a half-orc (maybe +4 Str, +2 Con, -2 Int, -2 Cha: half as strong and resilient as a "Large" Minotaur, smarter, same Cha penalty. For a Large transformation maybe add the rest (additional +4 Str, +2 Con, -2 Int -- bigger but a bit dumber)

-- Second Wind. How Gilgamesh-style are we talking here? For Second Wind perhaps add in your Con modifier? Also the name doesn't seem to really apply (maybe it would if it got rid of nonlethal damage). Maybe "Inner Reserve" or something a bit more thematically appropriate? When I think "second wind" I imagine the extra burst of energy you get on long runs (eliminating fatigue) and not effectively instant regeneration of wounds.

-- For Stamina why a flat +2 extra from healing spells? That seems to get a bit irrelevent at higher levels (or at least, not as useful). Maybe add your Str or Con modifier instead? Speaking of this, how are healing spells handled? Straight 3.5? If healing is more "epic" then this ability could add straight to each die rolled for healing.
-- I'm not sure how you are explaining the acquisition of creature types without their associated abilities (or how that really helps mechanically). As it doesn't include Darkvision what other parts of the monstrous humanoid type don't apply? What's the point of picking it?

-- Reach and space extend to 10 feet when you choose Large, correct? You carefully spell out the mechanics in other instances so I'm just checking.

-- Scent. Would it be simpler to just make this the Track feat with some small "flavor" additions?

 

[Grompi]

The Minotaur looked pretty good. I think the idea of picking "racial Feats" to increase their abilities is a lot better idea then the, frankly, lame racial levels in Savage Species.

I definitely agree this approach is better than Savage Species. Player choice is usually better, but better doesn't mean "good". I'm not disagreeing about your take on the minotaur with that statement--it's just a generality.

I'm not sure how you are explaining the acquisition of creature types without their associated abilities (or how that really helps mechanically). As it doesn't include Darkvision what other parts of the monstrous humanoid type don't apply? What's the point of picking it?

This is part of my own point, though the acqusistion of monstrous humanoid does provide some spell immunity (assuming spells work the same way). Of course, the description of the "monstrous humanoid" ability doesn't say you don't get darkvision as part of the package. But, judging by the way the rest of the abilities were explained by Mr. Upchurch, I guess one must assume one doesn't get anything not explicitly given.

I'm wondering, since the credits page doesn't include this (nor do the credits pages of any other Fantasy Flight d20 books I own). Do you guys actually playtest your stuff before you print it, or at least have a few enthusiastically hard-nosed rules lawyers who don't care who they offend proofread? (Whether or not other companies use playtesters and proofreaders is irrelevant.) Some of the questions coming up here seem pretty basic--realizing, of course, that we're seeing it out of the context of the whole. Yet, I've had similar questions about past works, like some instances in the Path series (which are quite good, taken as a whole).

It seems to me this sort of playtesting and proofreading is essential to a "great" product. Disagree if you like, but without it authors may believe that because they understand what they meant, everyone else will. This is a definite weakness in technical writing (which is what rules writing really is). The rush to get to market seems to override this common sense policy in many companies. Of course, it doesn't seem to guarantee a useful or good product (which may be a result of the "fanboy" syndrome). Thus, I arrogantly presume, we get things like Savage Species' monster levels.

 

[d20Dwarf]

I'm wondering, since the credits page doesn't include this (nor do the credits pages of any other Fantasy Flight d20 books I own). Do you guys actually playtest your stuff before you print it, or at least have a few enthusiastically hard-nosed rules lawyers who don't care who they offend proofread?

The racial advancement rules were indeed playtested (some of the early drafts were scar-ry). Midnight was also playtested. There's no way to just write good rules without playtesting them, unless you just happen to get lucky. Little things can be eyeballed I think, like feats and prestige class abilities, but entire rules subsystems must be playtested again and again in each incarnation, because there's simply no way to predict how they will affect the game in its entirety.

 

[Grompi]

The racial advancement rules were indeed playtested (some of the early drafts were scar-ry). Midnight was also playtested. There's no way to just write good rules without playtesting them, unless you just happen to get lucky. Little things can be eyeballed I think, like feats and prestige class abilities, but entire rules subsystems must be playtested again and again in each incarnation, because there's simply no way to predict how they will affect the game in its entirety.

Yeah, you're indeed right. Cool. Why no playtester credits (not that they're a big deal)?

 

[Tzeentch]

Was it internally playtested or where there "blind" playtests with people with no particular Dawnforge knowledge? Internal playtests have a bad habit of producing strange material because the principals know how it's "supposed to be played."

At least in my experience setting stuff doesn't require playtests. Mechanics requires playtests by frothing rules munchkins to really get it done right

 

[coyote6]

OTOH, too much of the "don't care who they offend" "frothing" is counterproductive; effective playtesting requires effective communication, and offending people willy-nilly hampers communication.

-Bob
Occasional Playtester, But Not of Dawnforge or BoEF
Wondering what "scar-ry racial advancement rules" would've looked like