Grompi, it's just strange that you have hung around EN World for 6 months, and have just now decided as your first post to come in with a detailed, nitpicky, insulting commentary about a book that you haven't read.
Unlike what you now assert, you took shots (yes, took shots) at the book as a whole rather than just the preview. You speak about the cultures and lands being undeveloped, but you haven't even read about them. You don't read a bullet list of software features and then proclaim the software to lack robustness. Well, you might, but one shouldn't.
I'll go ahead and give you some factual refutations and point out where you have either misunderstood the preview or failed to grasp the content within. Contrary to what you say, you did give more than opinions in your post. You told people what they would be getting when they bought the book. That implies that you are informed, but you are not.
Before I go down your points one by one, I should say that the most important thing you have failed to grasp is that Dawnforge is a young, young world. It is
meant to remind players and DMs of many classic fantasy tropes, but it is the context you are missing. We aren't providing an ancient, retreating elven nation. In fact, the elves have just arrived. It's possible they will turn out that way, but that's, again, part of the point. We are presenting Moria before the fall, elves and drow before (or during) the civil war that tore them apart, the sunken empire before it sunk, etc. Of course these ideas have been around before, but have you ever been able to live through the times that defined them? Few if any settings have ever taken you there before. None of these things have to happen. Some may, some may not, your characters will shape the future of the world rather than living in the aftermath of all the great events. So, we're not trying to present an amalgam of common fantasy elements, we are trying to present shadows of them in a world where they have yet to be defined.
grompi said:
1) With a sparse sense o' "real culture", the lands seem to be just as generic (and Eurocentric) as those in the Forgotten Realms' older incarnations (before Rashemen, Thay, and other easterly or southerly civilizations took form). The Table o' Contents and race list is indicative that purchasers o' Dawnforge will get few distinctive human cultures (4 races, very little space devoted to any human land, besides Anderland). In fact, there seems to be no real evolution o' culture (and technology) at all, except through cataclysm, much like Forgotten Realms. This whole preview reads as if we'll pretty much be gettin' Forgotten Realms before the fall o' the great old empires. In other words, generic.
There are few human cultures, just as there would be at the
beginning of the world. How many human cultures were there 10,000 years ago? You haven't read any of the book, so your comments on evolution and the amount of space given to the other human lands is questionable. What are you basing your opinion on? A quick page count shows that the Kingsmarch gets more pages than Anderland, which is a direct refutation of your assertion.
Also, keep in mind, this is a young world. The kind of cultural evolution you are talking about is not in the scope of this campaign setting where it stands. Also, 4 kinds of human is quite a lot when compared to other settings on the market.
grompi said:
2) Ancient woodland elven land (generic D&D, Tolkien, and so forth) called Sildanyr (a little too much like Sildeyuir o' the Star Elves from Forgotten Realms, if ye ask me.)
There is nothing ancient in Dawnforge. The world is young. Where are you getting this stuff? Yes, elves live together in a forest. Sorry if that's too generic for you. Would it have been better if the elves lived in the mountains and the dwarves in the forest?
grompi said:
3) "Night elves" (read drow, actually called drow in one place) (generic D&D, Everquest, and so forth) before their sunderin' from high-elven kind. Strangely, they still have dark skin and white hair—that much is original, at least in its timin' (generic drow gain that coloration upon their "fall"). They are misled by the Spider Queen (generic D&D, Forgotten Realms, Green Ronin's Plot & Poison), though she doesn't exist in that form yet, it seems. She's a goddess (?) named Lathail.
Yes, night elves exist. Why? People like them, people like to play them, people like to fight them. So, there ya go. It's also there to provide yet another link to the common fantasy stereotypes that Dawnforge wants to evoke.
I also have a philosophical question for you, since you are a reviewer. At what point is something no longer available for use? In other words, is Plot and Poison as bad as Dawnforge for discussing drow? Is Forgotten Realms as bad as Plot and Poison for featuring drow? Is there any time when a concept can be used more than once without becoming---generic, as you say.
grompi said:
4) A yuan-ti jungle empire (done by everyone in some form or another, from Green Ronin's serpent people in Freeport to the Forgotten Realms and Greyhawk). O' course, serpent folk, with their twisted and wicked culture, are from older fantasy literature, but so are most other D&D "trademarks". Thinbloods seem to be a convenient way o' makin' yuan-ti a PC race, since every other yuan-ti be way too powerful for a 1st-level character.
Again, yuan-ti live in jungles. Why? It's evocative of something most fantasy roleplayers are familiar with. I suppose we could have put them in floating cloud cities to avoid being---generic. But that would have missed the point of Dawnforge.
Also, the serpent people in Freeport are a: not yuan-ti, and b: do not live in the jungle in an empire. So that comparison is incorrect, probably just an oversight in your zeal to find things---generic.
grompi said:
5) A vast, mountain kingdom o' dwarves, before their inevitable defeat and diaspora (generic everythin', rooted in Toliken's Moria story). In fact, the "Fall of Grimhal" is the Moria story. (The sunken empire o' Valhedar is Atlantis or the fall o' Numenor). The "Storm King" o' giants (not unlike the Storm Lord o' Dungeon #93) and their battle with dwarven kind. The average giant is much more powerful than the average dwarf (I know, I used to be one). Why aren't the dwarves wiped out? Why are they only fighting the dwarves?
See above, Dawnforge is all about standard fantasy environments at the height of their power or before their cataclysmic change. Dawnforge dwarves don't all live underground.
There is no sunken empire of Valhedar.
As for individual power disparities between giants and dwarves, maybe there are more dwarves?
The giants also have other problems, they are not only fighting dwarves, as you would know if you read the book.
It's also a young world, the giants are long-lived and don't feel like wiping themselves out to destroy their enemies. These things are fairly obvious, though.
grompi said:
6) An "unexplored" land to the west, which is a very old concept, but also extremely Eurocentric. The natives o' that land certainly do not consider it unexplored or even unexploited. Tamerland, we see, is supposedly the home o' the doppelgangers, who have made themselves the enemies o' the eastern empires and are mistrusted at best (very
Palladium RPG). Do the doppelgangers have a society and culture? Where are their cities, and why weren't they discovered on the coast o' Tamerland? What does it mean to say dragons "infest" the mountains o' Tamerland? If they infest the mountains, why don't they rule the continent? O' course, since infest means to inhabit or overrun in enough numbers so as to be harmful or threatening, that could be like, what, three to ten dragons?
Ok, so you are saying you would have been more favorably inclined toward the product if Tamerland had been to the east? Weird.
You ask questions about Tamerland as if the preview was supposed to be an in-depth look at the entire world. Well, that's what the book is for. The preview was the introduction, which is a general overview of what one will find within as well as to give people a quick idea of what Dawnforge is all about. So, if you want your questions answered, it seems reasonable that you would simply read the book.
grompi said:
7) "Minotaurs are cunning and brutal, but their honor keeps them from marauding across Ambria in a swath of bloody destruction." Honor? Ye mean like Dragonlance minotaurs? Elsewhere it says the minotaurs are thralls o' giantkind. The racial mechanics o' the minotaur seem to indicate that the PCs o' Dawnforge will be at a power scale that is beyond the scale o' current D&D (they get racial talents and abilities while gaining levels in a non-racial class, like fighter). Without critiquing the mechanics, which seem a little strange, does this mean that most o' the mechanics lend themselves to high-powered fantasy? The introduction seems to indicate tis so. So, my wariness is peaked, because if I don't want to play in Dawnforge, will I still be able to use the mechanics? O' course, I'd be a fool to buy this book just for the mechanics, for they make up only about a third o' the content.
Yes, Dawnforge is supposed to give players a chance to play more powerful characters, to engage in epic deeds without having to resort to epic-level play, and to facilitate such play if that is what is desired. Dawnforge characters are going to become the legends of ages future, they are the Drusses, the Karsuses, and the other legends of worlds we are all familiar with. I think it will be fun for people to think of their characters as building their own legend, perhaps you disagree, which is fine.
grompi said:
8) Legendary classes. Legendary classes. (Sic, repeated material from other books?)
It is this kind of thing that forces me to conclude that you are simply being insulting for the sake of doing so. Are you suggesting that mechanics should not be reused? There should be no classes, prestige classes, feats, spells, etc. in any book other than the 3 core books? That is clearly your suggestion about legendary classes, and it makes no sense to me.
Also, you have again propagated a falsehood that there is repeated material in Dawnforge. You have no basis for this, and it is in fact false (outside of a necessary explanation of the LgC mechanics). Do you accept that you have made a false statement? Why would you do so?
grompi said:
Forgive my backhanded insult, but it's a tribute to the marketing skill o' the writers here that they were able to get something this cliché into the semifinal round o' the WotC contest. Forgive my arrogance and (perhaps) uninformed judgment, but it's also clear to me why it didn't get the final vote. If Arcana Unearthed was entered into the latter contest, it certainly deserved more attention than Dawnforge, even though it too has a few things that are a little too generic. I pray Eberron is better.
It's called a backhanded compliment, actually.
And I think your perception has more to do with your lack of understanding of Dawnforge than with any shortcomings of the review team at Wizards of the Coast. You also seem to think that what you want is what Wizards wanted, which is a common conceit. The fact that you can't even admit that your opinion is uninformed is indicative of your attitude.
So there you go, just what you asked for.
Please don't be dismissive by accusing me of emotional responses. I haven't yet given one, and my conclusion that you are a troll was reasonable and may still be. Even if it is not the case, I do find your insulting and ignorant commentary about a book you have not read to be distasteful. I would refute anyone who attempted to give the false impression that he knew the contents of a book he had not read, especially when presented in a negative review of the book.
