Dawnforge preview

[blackshirt5]

Must be a troll racial talent.

Naw, it's an elven racial talent; he's half-fairy.

Seriously, I like it, it seems close to what I was homebrewing a few months ago.

 

[rvaughn_ffg]

Wise words, but don't you think the game world should provide a way to do this with minimum fuss?

As the guy taking over the development of Dawnforge supplements, it was in my best interest to be critical of the setting (I would be the one to "pick up the pieces" if it wasn't good!), and I had no problem with the racial transformations from an imagination/reasoning point of view. I'll start with this age-old suggestion, and then leave it at that: we don't need to use real-world rules in our fantasy world. Talking about "realistic" growth and racial development isn't necessary, if . . . (here's where we move on to my take on how and why it happens) . . .

The setting and the players live in an age of legend. Magic is a strong and primal force in the world, and the various races have yet to "settle in" to what their future will be. Will the dwarves become reclusive? Will the night elves become subterranean outcasts? Will the minotaurs be nomadic periphery dwellers? Will the humans choose their celestial lineage, or their fiendish?

So as you adventure in the world, as you make a name for yourself and your race, and your true self comes into being. You can say "just a few more goblins and I get large!", sure, but you can just as easily say "just a few more goblins and I can learn a cool new trick with my sword!" or "get better goodies from my god!" I hear you on the psychological development part, but in this ancient world of myth, thought and belief itself can shape not only your actions, but your physical being.

Stick that in your pipe and smoke it! Seriously, we're hearkening back to Greek myth and ancient times where Beowulf can swim underwater for 10 minutes while fighting Grendel's mother, just 'cause he's a bad*ss, and Achilles can beat anyone in battle. So it's a divergence from the D&D "realism plus magic" . . . maybe it's got a taste of Exalted, where you have these amazing powers because of the nature of the world. But not far enough away that you can't still play with a bare-bones d20-style, rules-mechanics adventuring with dungeons, monster-hunting, and all that good stuff.

As for the Large size vs. Medium, if you're still not convinced, consider this: Large and Medium are arbitrary categories anyway. Ogres are 9 feet tall, while you have humans that could be 7 feet tall. It's not like the creature doubles in size, it simply passes that threshold where game mechanics need to compensate for it.

But hey, I'm not here to stick up for it, I'm just here 'cause arguing is fun . Hope folks enjoy it, in any case.

 

[Grompi]

Naw, it's an elven racial talent; he's half-fairy.

Obligatory pointless ad hominem retaliation to equally (if not more) pointless slander: This from someone who rides a broomstick for fun? Can ye add somethin' useful, besides "I like it. It's just like me own. My precious!"

As the guy taking over the development of Dawnforge supplements, it was in my best interest to be critical of the setting (I would be the one to "pick up the pieces" if it wasn't good!), and I had no problem with the racial transformations from an imagination/reasoning point of view. I'll start with this age-old suggestion, and then leave it at that: we don't need to use real-world rules in our fantasy world.

I'm glad you, a member of the development team, have no problem with the racial transformation stuff. But really, what has that got to do with anything. It doesn't answer any of the questions posed here. No offense, but that last statement is just a lame cop out that one would have been better off not saying. It's the same thing as saying, "It's that way because we say so, and we don't need any reasons. You, the DM, can pull up any slack for suspension of disbelief in your group. That's not what this $40 description of a "complete" world is for."

Talking about "realistic" growth and racial development isn't necessary, if . . . (here's where we move on to my take on how and why it happens) . . . The setting and the players live in an age of legend. Magic is a strong and primal force in the world, and the various races have yet to "settle in" to what their future will be. So as you adventure in the world, as you make a name for yourself and your race, and your true self comes into being.

Fine. Does Dawnforge say explicitly that's why minotaurs get Large with experience? Magic infuses their very being and their growth is a manifestation of a desire for and expression of physical might? If it doesn't say that in the book, then there is no explanation in the book. That's the point. Just about any DM can make one up, lame or not.

You can say "just a few more goblins and I get large!", sure, but you can just as easily say "just a few more goblins and I can learn a cool new trick with my sword!" or "get better goodies from my god!" I hear you on the psychological development part, but in this ancient world of myth, thought and belief itself can shape not only your actions, but your physical being.

Stick that in your pipe and smoke it! Seriously, we're hearkening back to Greek myth and ancient times where Beowulf can swim underwater for 10 minutes while fighting Grendel's mother, just 'cause he's a bad*ss, and Achilles can beat anyone in battle.

See previous statement – does the book say that the nature of the world is why minotaurs get Large, or is it a convenience of game design that has no explanation? Further, getting Large is not the same as getting more skilled or getting more magically potent, a point I've made more than once. Both examples you cite from myth support this (my) point of view, not yours. That is, it's easy to reason that a character gets more skilled or magically potent with experience. Achilles was a high-level fighter, blessed with many potent abilities and magic items and Beowulf was also a puissant warrior. It's not easy to reason that he grows 3 feet, and neither of your examples shows that it is. Stick that in my pipe? All seriousness aside , you haven't said anything that hasn't already been said by others, and you haven't really addressed the question.

As for the Large size vs. Medium, if you're still not convinced, consider this: Large and Medium are arbitrary categories anyway. Ogres are 9 feet tall, while you have humans that could be 7 feet tall. It's not like the creature doubles in size, it simply passes that threshold where game mechanics need to compensate for it.

The size categories aren't arbitrary (random, illogical, subjective), they're a logical means of measurement. If they were actually arbitrary, their mechanical factors wouldn't be graduated or necessarily meaningful at all. What we really have, once again, is a problem with binary mechanics. You're either 7 ft. 11 in. and Medium or 8 ft. and Large, on or off, yes or no, some mechanical relevance or none.

It's much to late to defend anything, the book's printing. I'm just wondering whether or not the decision to make the size change the way it is was anything but arbitrary (other than being based on the fact that others have done it—poorly [Savage Species] or with world-relevant explanation [Arcana Unearthed]). If a designer (of any sort) can't say why something is the way it is, with coherent and educated reasoning, then something is wrong.

Client: Why is the website purple?
Designer: Heh. Because it looks cool.
Client: But it has nothing to do with our company or message.
Designer: Yeah, but it works. I mean, it's there ... on the web.
Client: You're fired.

You're right, arguing is fun.

 

[rvaughn_ffg]

Fine. Does Dawnforge say explicitly that's why minotaurs get Large with experience? Magic infuses their very being and their growth is a manifestation of a desire for and expression of physical might?

Umm . . . yes. Pretty much. That's the theme of the whole campaign.

Glad to see such enthusiasm for discussing this exciting project!

 

[Scorpio]

Tell you what, Grompi, why don't you close the door to your bedroom, and get yourself some notebook paper and a ballpoint pen, and devise your very own campaign world, that works just the way you want it to, when you want it to, and how you want it to. Then, you can try to sell/publish/hawk/flaunt/pimp/train your puppy with it....
That should keep you busy for a while....

 

[Grompi]

Tell you what, Grompi, why don't you close the door to your bedroom, and get yourself some notebook paper and a ballpoint pen, and devise your very own campaign world, that works just the way you want it to, when you want it to, and how you want it to. Then, you can try to sell/publish/hawk/flaunt/pimp/train your puppy with it....
That should keep you busy for a while....

Who's the troll? I hope making this pointless post made you feel really good.

What does this have to do with anything? Are my questions somehow invalid because they don't agree that everything in the mechanics FFG put on public display are great ideas. Apparently they aren't valid, since the persons to whom they are posed deign to ignore the majority of them. Yet, a decent portion of the intelligent comments in this thread agree with my points.

Since we're on the subject of unsolicited advice, here's some for you: Try posting something worthwhile, instead of a pointless attack. Maybe then this would be an actual discussion. Instead, the only thing that made this thread worthwhile (and last past the first few posts) at all was the fact that I made it controversial. (Bad publicity is better than no publicity.) The previews found here can be located in other ways. The representatives of Dawnforge have given half-answers or repetitious, ill conceived logic to much of what I've asked. Some of the points I've made about their own mistakes (such as Wil's mistake about the Freeport serpent folk and their relevance to my argument) have been left without answer as well. That's fine. It's evidence for the observant that I'm not totally in the wrong, even on my most "uninformed" rants.

Admittedly I made some mistakes in my original post, but regardless of Will Upchurch's sensitivity to the matter, they were only my opinions. My misinterpretation of the original material is partly my fault, partly the fault of the design of the preview, which is not totally clear that the sidebars contain only a possible future. (Hence others, not me, have balked at the campaign setting, suspecting FFG will inject a "metaplot" into future supplements. For more on that see the Dawnforge Yahoo group.) What I have learned in my short tenure here is that very few persons bother to read completely what others post, and fewer still respond, fewer still respond to anything but the negative, and fewer still respond with anything of value. Your own post proves this latter point. Thanks.

I have my own campaign world. Everyone who's ever played in it has enjoyed its milieu more than any other world they've played, including published works. What does that mean as far as publishing it is concerned? Zilch. Nada. Nothing. I have no means of marketing my world, no means of publishing it, and no means of differentiating it from the scads of schlock already on the market. That means even if it's the best thing since bagged 'n' sliced bread, it still won't sell (unless it has got a WotC logo on it). The why has nothing to do with quality, just like quality had nothing to do with why some things did sell in the older d20 market, and why it has become a bear market for most companies. Finally, to paraphrase Terry Brooks of Shannara (et al) fame, much of the circumstance of getting published at all is sheer luck.

Umm . . . yes. Pretty much. That's the theme of the whole campaign.

Sorry. I wasn't going to bother pointing this out, but since I'm here I will. "Pretty much" is not the same as explicitly. The book either says minotaurs grow for that reason explicitly or it doesn't. I can appreciate that this is the theme of the campaign world, but having a character grow 3 ft. because of experience still feels weird to me. I still feel that natural cunning would have served better as a post character creation transformation. Thanks for the clear answer though.

 

[TheBurnedMan]

Grompi. Feel free to trash our work...

http://www.enworld.org/forums/showthread.php?t=71345