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DCC RPG BETA, June 8th

Incorrigible New-Schooler talking here, so be warned.

I like a lot of what I see, including the idea of randomness as a balancing factor. How that randomness is applied seems a bit too fiddly. With so many random tables, and so many steps on each table, I'm having a hard time imagining a pace that doesn't break immersion. I'm thinking fewer tables that cover more actions, and fewer steps on each table. Keep the idea of randomness, but streamline it.
 

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Incorrigible New-Schooler talking here, so be warned.

I like a lot of what I see, including the idea of randomness as a balancing factor. How that randomness is applied seems a bit too fiddly. With so many random tables, and so many steps on each table, I'm having a hard time imagining a pace that doesn't break immersion. I'm thinking fewer tables that cover more actions, and fewer steps on each table. Keep the idea of randomness, but streamline it.

Yeah, I don't like the idea of HAVING to refer to a chart every time a spell is cast. There are other RPG's that have a similar requirement, and I don't play them either.

I'm seeing lots of cool ideas, but all the various charts needed, and fiddly bits, are definitely keeping me from wanting to even try it out.
 


Yeah, I don't like the idea of HAVING to refer to a chart every time a spell is cast. There are other RPG's that have a similar requirement, and I don't play them either.

I'm seeing lots of cool ideas, but all the various charts needed, and fiddly bits, are definitely keeping me from wanting to even try it out.

Yes, if I want lots of charts and fiddly optimization then Rolemaster is the "go to" system for me. This is especially true if I can work in their very high quality middle earth supplements to the game somehow.
 


In my experience at cons, it actually plays very quickly. Quicker than traditional 3.5 or 4e, for sure.


That is true, when I watched it being played at Gary Con it seemed to flow fast enough.


Hmmm... Maybe I should follow my own words and quit trying to guess how it plays by reading it and give it an actual run.
 

To me it seems the 3 major headaches that people have are the character funnel (not going to change), the % thief skills (I'll place money on it changing to d20 in some way) and the Dice=

In reply to Treebore on the DCC forums, about the dice
Treebore,

Given all the commentary on the Zocchi dice, I do think it's fair to ask me to answer the question: "Why?" At a gut level I feel it is the right thing to do, both creatively and as a business move.

Creatively, I like funky dice. I get a fun feeling of nostalgia when using Zocchi dice; they're clever and engaging; and they broaden the market. Yes, I said, "broaden the market." Show the Zocchi dice to a 7-year old and watch what happens. Although DCC RPG is clearly aimed at grognards, I have a thought on our target demographic that seems to have escaped many of the commentators: we're all in our 30's and 40's...but many of us have kids. DCC RPG has been very successful with children; at con games, we playtesters routinely run sessions with grognards and their young children. I did this myself most recently at Gamex / Strategicon up in LA two weekends ago. I had a session with a bunch of guys over 30...and a 10-year-old. It was a lot of fun and the kid loved it. And the funky dice were part of his enthusiasm. This kid not only has the excitement we all felt when we discovered polyhedrons, but he has polyhedrons that no other kid at school has!

"But wait," the commentators keep saying, "the funky dice will prevent me from playing the game! This is costing us sales!" Maybe. You can never be sure until the product releases. But I'm not so sure there is any risk here. "Funky dice threads" have created a lot of publicity for DCC RPG. For every forum post decrying the game's funky dice, someone who likes dice has discovered the game and pre-ordered it. So far I believe the publicity around the weird dice has been generally positive for sales.

But what if I removed the funky dice from the game? Would many prospective buyers then have their barriers removed, and decide to try out DCC RPG?

What do you think?

Personally, I think gamers are an opinionated lot. (And I count myself among that category: I got my professional start in this industry by making such a stink about WH40K 2nd edition that I got hired by Games Workshop's primary competitor at the time.) There's a certain set of gamers who tend to be highly loyal to a certain vision of gaming, and are hard to convert to new products. I know, from 10 years of doing Goodman Games, there is a large pool of gamers out there who are so far from my aesthetic that no game I produce will ever appeal to them. These gamers will reject the game due to a wide variety of reasons, and funky dice is as good as any other.

On the flip side, there are several hundred thousand gamers who have purchased Dungeon Crawl Classics modules over the last 8 years, and THEY are the potential customers for DCC RPG for whom I hope the dice are not a barrier. To those customers -- and Treebore, I consider you one of these, based on what I know of your tastes -- I offer this commentary: I do appreciate your support over the years, and, if you are not already a dice-lover, I do hope you give DCC RPG a try! I believe there are three reasons you may still like DCC RPG despite the funky dice:

(1) DCC RPG is cheaper than almost all competitors, even with the dice, once you understand its product structure. DCC RPG will consist of one core rulebook, a lot of modules, and an annual supplement of some kind. Playing most other games on the market right now requires an initial layout for the core rulebook, often a separate expenditure for various DM or monster books, and then regular investment in the official sourcebooks that release every few months. Not so for DCC RPG. I will ask you to spend $35 for the core rulebook, which is already cheaper than almost every other quality hardback on the market right now. (Not to "name names" but go look at what other companies are asking for core rulebooks these days: with the exception of the Troll Lord low-priced C&C intro strategy which I greatly admire, almost every other hardback readily available in a game store is in the $50-$60 range.) I will then ask you to spend about $25 on dice. And then you don't have to spend anything else, ever. There will not be iterative sourcebooks that offer constantly expanding "official" rules. There will not be monster books, character books, rule books, campaign books, adventure paths, blah blah blah. What will there be? Well, there will be no shortage of DCC modules, and one annual supplement featuring some adventures and any cool rule ideas that came up in the prior year. DCC RPG is one of the most affordable games on the market, even with the dice.

(2) You probably already own far too many dice...right? You've got a dozen d20's, a gazillion d6's, and bunches of other dice. We all do! We're gamers! I personally own more dice than I can easily transport. So I ask that you spend one year not buying any more "normal" polyhedron...and instead invest in Zocchi dice. I've experienced this scenario at almost every con: A guy walks up to watch me play...declares he doesn't want to spend money on "weird dice he'll only use once"...then I watch him walk to another table and open his dice bag to display literally hundreds of "normal" dice that he can't possibly use on an ongoing basis! For those of you who currently own lots and lots and lots of traditional polyhedrons, I say: save the $25 you would have spent on "other" dice this year for Zocchi dice. They're more interesting than another sparkly d20 that will simply replace one of the other d20's you already own.

(3) And, finally... you really don't need the dice to play. There are multiple threads on these boards from people who have substituted other dice in live play with no problems whatsoever.

At some point in the coming months I'll offer some sort of special dice offer. I do want people to enjoy DCC RPG, and I am interested in overcoming obstacles to play. For those genuinely interested in playing the game, I'll try to find something that works well to resolve "the dice barrier." Maybe a Groupon offer, maybe a dice trade-in offer...I'm not exactly sure yet. And I'm open to ideas for anyone who has any. Obviously I have to pay for the dice so I can't give them away for free, but I'm open to offers that could mitigate the expense on the gamer and allow Goodman Games to break even. DCC RPG is a fun game to play, and I'll think you enjoy it -- especially with a d16 in one hand and a d20 in the other!

Thanks,
Joseph
 

We are challenged here at ENWorld to be better posters by telling others why our game is cool without knocking the other guy's game. And here's a bad example of this negative behavior in an otherwise professional product. I'm not angry because I disagree with their assessment (which I do disagree with), but moreso because it seems they are taking the edition wars from "some random guy on the internet" status to a professional product level. .

When I read that line I nodded my head in agreement. I don't think they were being negative, instead they were comparing their game to the trend that I TOO have seen in "modern" games--i.e. technical and rules-heavy. That's why there is so much interest in a whole other side of the RPG spectrum, the "rules-lite" or "hippy" games, like you find at the story-games forums (as opposed to OSR.) They're a new-school, but rules-lite, story driven games. Their argument is that these "modern" games favor power-gamer/min-max style playing, i.e. munchkins, by being technical and complicated. And I agree with them. I met a war-gamer that hated D&D until 4e. He words, it's more tactical. I know tons of people that hated D&D since 3.0, for the same exact reasons.

Ultimately one man's trash is another man's treasure. Each his own. It's not for everyone. etc. and all that...
 

To each his own opinion, but I also point out that the conceit of that line still views 4E and Pathfinder as the only aspect of modern RPGs. The game I'm currently running is a modern RPG, is not rules-heavy, nor tactical. And many other games exist that do not embrace old-school mores but bring a story-driven, non-tactical experience.

And I still say there is plenty about their own RPG they can tout as interesting and exiciting without slamming others' games.
 

To each his own opinion, but I also point out that the conceit of that line still views 4E and Pathfinder as the only aspect of modern RPGs. The game I'm currently running is a modern RPG, is not rules-heavy, nor tactical. And many other games exist that do not embrace old-school mores but bring a story-driven, non-tactical experience.

And I still say there is plenty about their own RPG they can tout as interesting and exiciting without slamming others' games.

True. But I try not to take it so personal. Like when a certain company put out a heavily redesigned new edition of their game and started telling us how we had to switch because this version was so much better than the old version. Kind of ticked me off that I spent 5 years, countless hours, and thousands of dollars on their crappy old edition. Then I tried their new edition, for several months, and decided they were wrong, their old edition appealed to me much, much more, but since I had quit playing it back in 2005, I just don't play either edition.

Eventually I got over it. They need to hype their own game/product, and when any such company hypes their new product, or product line, it should all be taken very lightly, and certainly not personally. Not to mention with many grains of salt.
 

Into the Woods

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