DCs for Knowledge checks about monsters too dang high

[buzz]

C'mon: DC10 + HD for one useful bit of info, one extra bit for every 5 by which you make the check?

E.g., griffon: 7HD = DC17 for basic info. Depending on how you define "useful info", DC22 will tell you it has a pounce ability and DC27 ("Formidable" task) will tell you it has rake... assuming your DM hasn't filled those two breakpoints with basic info like "it's a large magical beast with darkvision". This is a CR4 creatutre. Ergo, your wizard will at best likely have Knowledge (arcana) +10 or so; i.e., 65% to know basic info, and it spirals down from there.

E.g., stone golem: 14HD = DC24 for basic info, up to DC44 (beyond "Nearly impossible"!) to know all there is to know about them (if your DM is being nice), even for your Wiz11 with his maxed +19 or so skill bonus. I.e., 0% to know all the useful info... and this for a creature typically created by wizards.

I gotta say, I find this wacked. For monsters that fall into less-common Knowledge areas (dungeoneering, local, the planes), your characters, by RAW, have no chance of knowing in-game anything about the creatures they spend their entire lives battling.

There's part of me that wants to agree with gamist approaches to D&D and just allow players to use their own knowledge of creatures instead of maintaining the pretense of PCs acting in total ignorance of creatures they fight regularly.

That, or just making sure some in-game source is available to consistently keep them informed.

Or... at least ditching the "more info for every 5 the DC is beat" rule, and just making it like every other Knowledge check: you make the DC, you know the answer.

Or... having a simple Knowledge (monsters) skill, a la AE.

Thoughts?

 

[Krelios]

Change it from one extra bit of info every five points to every two points like feeding extra people with Survival. It hasn't really been a problem in our group as I hand wave the "extra information" anyway.

 

[Nail]

Yup.

IMC, I house rule it. Monsters fall into arbitrary catagories: Common, Uncommon, Rare, Unique. DCs start at 15, and go up by 5's.

In addition, they migh have modifiers like "Legendary (-10 DC)", or "Extraplanar (+5 DC)", or "Mistaken I.D. (+10 DC)", or "Mythic (+10 DC)".

 

[Haffrung Helleyes]

If we applied this stupid rule to real life, kids would know nothing about dinosaurs and elephants, and lots about smaller animals.

It's absolutely absurd to link Knowledge checks to HD. Who hasn't heard of a Dragon?

Ken

 

[Scion]

If we applied this stupid rule to real life, kids would know nothing about dinosaurs and elephants, and lots about smaller animals.

Zombies are twice as hard (for the hd part) to figure out as compared to skeletons of the same creature

I definately go for the commonality dcs.. although in one game I simply let people choose a number of creatures to know everything about based on how many ranks they put in (it started decently and increased rapidly).. but then in the same game I treated skill points in a special way which made it much easier for characters to put several points into the knowledge skills without skimping on the others (based on all stats instead of just int).

 

[Land Outcast]

Well, actually in my group there seems to be a big divergence with... others, the knowledge checks made against creatures almost always succed, and past level 10-12 some of them don't even need the dice be rolled.

And I'll bring the ever-popular remark of the wizard knowing that the wyrmling breathes cold as a weapon, and knows that not of the great wyrm.

 

[buzz]

I like the commonality idea, and would maybe associate it not with creatures as a whole, but maybe their abilties. I.e., a creature might have a base DC, and cerain abilities adn weaknesses would have set DCs above that. Sort of like bardic lore checks and the Knowledge DCs given in Dragon's "Ecology of..." articles.

That, or simply rexamine the question of whether or not having info about a creature has any impact on the fun being had. Why not just be up-front and let the players strategize their booties off?

I mean, draconic is the lingua franca of arcane casters. Why wouldn't they be fully informed about dragonkind, at least by a certain level?

 

[Shazman]

Yup.

IMC, I house rule it. Monsters fall into arbitrary catagories: Common, Uncommon, Rare, Unique. DCs start at 15, and go up by 5's.

In addition, they migh have modifiers like "Legendary (-10 DC)", or "Extraplanar (+5 DC)", or "Mistaken I.D. (+10 DC)", or "Mythic (+10 DC)".

I like this method best. I usually just came up with some off the cuff DC based on how rare or wierd the monster was. I wasn't even aware of the "10 + hit die plus extra for every 5 points you beat the DC by" rule. I guess it pays to read the rulebooks cover to cover. Well, except in this case, since this seems to be a very gank rule.

 

[Klaus]

It depends on what you consider a 'useful bit of information'.

A 4th level wizard with Int 16 and maxed Knowledge (arcana) has a +10 modifier. So he only needs a 7 to know the basic information of a griffon:

"Griffons have features of both hawks and lions: they can fly and see like the former and are fierce and strong like the latter. Thay also have a taste for horse-flesh."

What else is needed to know?

Let's see what our mage knows about red dragons, eh?

He needs a 7 (wyrmling) to know that red dragons are evil, vain and disdainful. They can breathe fire and are immune to it. With a 12 he also knows that a red dragon is vulnerable to cold.

With a 13 (young) he knows that even before adulthood red dragons have the magic ability of neophyte sorcerors. An 18 tells him that red dragons can cast arcane spells that are identical to several divine spells, including Chaos, Evil and Fire ones.

A 16 tells our 4th-level Wizard that starting at juvenile age, red dragons can track down an object unerringly, so don't go stealing from them!

A 19 tells our mage that from young adulthood on, only magical weapons have a hope of penetrating a red dragon's scales. And this is for a CR 13 creature.

I guess what is needed is a good chart of "useful bits" for the monsters.

 

[kigmatzomat]

I use a variant based on types. Animals & humanoids start at DC 5; magical beasts, undead & dragons are 10; abherrations, outsiders & fey are 15.

The theory is that people are familiar with animals' general abilities, animals are the most common and least dangerous, per HD. Humanoids are prone to either war or commerce and information tends to flow. Magical beasts are a bit more rare but still not exceptionally scary while undead and dragons are common topics of discussion. Abherrations are horribly monsters that live away from most civilizations, outsiders are hard to converse with and fey just like to screw with people's heads so you never know what might or might not be true.

I then apply these modifiers which are additive.

• +5 if secretive or stealthy by nature (+10 if it has magical/extraordinary stealth ability)
• +5 if prefer one kind of environment (+10 if restricted to a hard to reach environment)
  Ignore if the character has spent significant time in that environment
• +5 if not typically found on your continent or plane (+10 if cannot be called by Summon X spells)
• -10 if the character can call the type of creature by a Summon X spell

IIRC, a phantom fungus is an invisible aberration that can live just about anywhere so DC 25. Grimlocks are subterranean humanoids so DC 15 (secretive & typically subterranean). Specific information on dragons is DC15 (they are secretive) while info on the rare OtherContinental Dragon is DC25. Lantern archons are DC20 (DC10 to a caster who can Summon Lantern Archons) but a Balor is DC 25.