DCs for Knowledge checks about monsters too dang high

[IanB]

Yeah, I think part of the problem is that some DMs just aren't giving enough info out as 'basic' information about the creature.

"In many cases, you can use this skill to identify monsters and their special powers or vulnerabilities. In general, the DC of such a check equals 10 + the monster’s HD. A successful check allows you to remember a bit of useful information about that monster.

For every 5 points by which your check result exceeds the DC, you recall another piece of useful information. "

So even with a minimum check, you should be getting one useful piece of information (a special power or vulnerability) in addition to the basic info. The important word there I think is useful. A DM who goes out of his way to pick stuff like what the type is is not providing useful information and is really violating the spirit of the rules.

 

[buzz]

What else is needed to know?

Being aware of the griffon's pounce and rake attacks and other natural weapons, whether they are good at certain skills or have specific feats.

Let's see what our mage knows about red dragons, eh?
...
I guess what is needed is a good chart of "useful bits" for the monsters.

Or some guidelines. IMO, your reserving of dragon DR info for the 19 roll (i.e., only 10% chance) seems harsh. You'd think a wizard would know about basic dragon abilities by 4th level.

But, more importantly, these numbers change completely when the same wizard meets an older dragon. He suddenly faces insurmountable DCs just to "remember" the same information, given RAW. As a DM, I would absolutely never require a player to roll to see that his PC "remembers" about a creature he'd faced before.

(Which is exactly what the wizard player in my game last night did with the golem we were fighting. I was flabbergasted to see the DM go along with letting him roll, seeing as we'd faced another golem of the same type just a month or two previous in game-time. Insanity.)

 

[buzz]

kigmatzomat, I like your rules.

 

[IanB]

Being aware of the griffon's pounce and rake attacks and other natural weapons, whether they are good at certain skills or have specific feats.


Or some guidelines. IMO, your reserving of dragon DR info for the 19 roll (i.e., only 10% chance) seems harsh. You'd think a wizard would know about basic dragon abilities by 4th level.

But, more importantly, these numbers change completely when the same wizard meets an older dragon. He suddenly faces insurmountable DCs just to "remember" the same information, given RAW. As a DM, I would absolutely never require a player to roll to see that his PC "remembers" about a creature he'd faced before.

(Which is exactly what the wizard player in my game last night did with the golem we were fighting. I was flabbergasted to see the DM go along with letting him roll, seeing as we'd faced another golem of the same type just a month or two previous in game-time. Insanity.)

I don't see any reason why the wizard can't be making his knowledge rolls against what he remembers about wyrmling red dragons when he meets an old one. It doesn't really specify you have to have the monster you're rolling about right in front of you.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

If we applied this stupid rule to real life, kids would know nothing about dinosaurs and elephants, and lots about smaller animals.

It's absolutely absurd to link Knowledge checks to HD. Who hasn't heard of a Dragon?

Ken

Everybody has heard about dragons, but when it comes to describing what they actually can do, there might be a lot of misconceptions, myths and contradicting information.
The rulebook might say there are chromatic and metallic dragons and this color means this energy breath weapon, but the rulebook isn't what the people in-game know.
(Though Dragons are still an example where the system falls down - basic informaton about the effects of color have little to do with the HD - the rule that red dragons breath fire applies for wyrmlings to great wyrms)

 

[Herremann the Wise]

I don't have much issue with the knowledge rules. As long as the DM provides "useful" information with a successful check (I have a habit of telling the player the most useful information that their character would reasonably know), the rules fit in well with my world which tries to heighten the mystical nature of these strange entities and creatures. As Mustrum_Ridcully points out, there is a difference between stories, myth and folktales and the actuality of a creature facing the PCs that they have never seen before.

Best Regards
Herremann the Wise

 

[zoroaster100]

The Ecology articles in Dragon magazine provide DCs for knowledge checks about that creature. It would be nice to compile a list of such for all the creatures in the Monster Manual. Maybe we should start a thread on the General or the Monster forum to do that as a community resource.

 

[Klaus]

Buzz -> If your Knowledge roll of 7 (+10 modifier) tells you that a griffon sees like a hawk and fights like a lion, you're actually telling the player "it gets +x on Spot and can pounce and rake", minus the mechanics lingo.

Also, the DC 19 to know that a young adult red dragon has DR 5/magic is because only from that age on do the dragons actually have it. And it's a creature whose CR is 9 points above the wizard's level. A 9th-level Wizard, with +15 on Knowledge (arcana) needs a meager 4 on a d20 to know that. And by that time he might actually be facing a CR 13 dragon.

And, as IanB says, it's pretty easy to know that a red dragon breathes fire and is impervious to it (DC 17 for a wyrmling), and that information holds true for the remainder of the dragon's life. So even if you meet a 40HD red dragon, it's still only a DC 17 to know that a red dragon breathes fire.

MustrumRidcully -> I find that dragons are the example of how the system is good. You roll against the HD of the first age category where the dragon gains the power in question, and that holds true for all ages.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Buzz -> If your Knowledge roll of 7 (+10 modifier) tells you that a griffon sees like a hawk and fights like a lion, you're actually telling the player "it gets +x on Spot and can pounce and rake", minus the mechanics lingo.

Also, the DC 19 to know that a young adult red dragon has DR 5/magic is because only from that age on do the dragons actually have it. And it's a creature whose CR is 9 points above the wizard's level. A 9th-level Wizard, with +15 on Knowledge (arcana) needs a meager 4 on a d20 to know that. And by that time he might actually be facing a CR 13 dragon.

And, as IanB says, it's pretty easy to know that a red dragon breathes fire and is impervious to it (DC 17 for a wyrmling), and that information holds true for the remainder of the dragon's life. So even if you meet a 40HD red dragon, it's still only a DC 17 to know that a red dragon breathes fire.

MustrumRidcully -> I find that dragons are the example of how the system is good. You roll against the HD of the first age category where the dragon gains the power in question, and that holds true for all ages.

That makes sense, but I never thought of that before .
(But that's maybe because our group is too familiar with common/prominent monsters like dragons, and still we rarely fight dragons...)

 

[cmanos]

complaint taken.....

Now remember....Say you have a Knowledge skill useable in this situation. Say you have it maxed out so you can know these things. Say you haven't used Intelligence as your dump stat and have a +1 bonus.....at 1st level thats a +5 bonus without any other kind of bonuses you may have found ways to add in. If you have time and have the jump on the creature, you take 10 and at 1st level can get a useful bit of information about creatures up to 5 HD. If you have long enough time to study...you can take 10 each round and garner more and more nformation.

Now if the creature gets the jump on you, you aren't going to be able to think as clear and will need to make a roll....which you may get an insane bit of insight and get 2 bits of information in one 6 second.

Personally I think it is just fine, but you can house rule it any way you want.