DDO and 4th edition

[mhensley]

In all of the recent rumors of 4th edition, I 've seen the idea that 4th edition will be heavily influenced by the D&D minis game. What about the possible influence of DDO and other D&D crpg's? Will WOTC feel the need to change the rules in 4th edition so that it is easier to develop computer games for it?

When DDO was developed (disclaimer- I have not played it and am going off of what I have read) many of the standard D&D rules had to be changed to better fit the mmorpg style of play. The biggest changes they made that I'm aware of is the use of spell points and much faster healing and spell recovery. Do you think that these types of changes should be part of a 4th edition?

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

I think the fact that DDO is considered a commercial failure by the larger computer gaming industry will limit its longterm impact. I'd expect more impact from World of Warcraft, which is bigger than every other North American MMORPG before it, combined, and which naturally has a lot of people interested in D&D playing it. (Which makes sense, since Warcraft was inspired by Warhammer and AD&D to begin with.)

There are some nice modest innovations in game design in WoW, mostly compared to previous MMORPGs, but some of them are nicely portable to pen and paper games. Indeed, the X uses per encounter thing in Tome of Battle and Iron Heroes greatly emulates how MMORPGs play.

 

[Kunimatyu]

Actually, yes.

Spell points make it easier for new players to learn the system, and you want to make things easy for new players.

I don't hate the idea of rapidly recoverable resources(healing and spells), either -- it would free us from the X encounters per day idea. At the same time, I like the idea of depleting resources and resting, so I could see things going either way here.

 

[Flexor the Mighty!]

Actually, yes.

Spell points make it easier for new players to learn the system, and you want to make things easy for new players.

How do spell points make it easier? :\

 

[Victim]

Most people are already familar with spell points thanks to many other games. AFAIK, the original Final Fantasy used spell slots, but I can't think of much else.

Of course, it's my belief that spell points are actually more complex on a deep level than slots, since small changes can result in major differences in ability - dropping one too many charm persons back in town might mean ending up one point shy of that Time Stop or something. It's harder to grasp the implications of resource expenditure. This isn't really a problem in say WoW, since mana is regening constantly - mess things up a little up and you're only a couple seconds away from having it back.

 

[mhensley]

(Which makes sense, since Warcraft was inspired by Warhammer and AD&D to begin with.)

It's come full circle really. D&D inspired all crpgs including WoW. But D20 seems to have been heavily influenced by Diablo (feat trees, magic items, etc.) which was also a big influence on WoW as well.

 

[Sejs]

It's come full circle really. D&D inspired all crpgs including WoW. But D20 seems to have been heavily influenced by Diablo (feat trees, magic items, etc.) which was also a big influence on WoW as well.

The feat/ability tree thing isn't new, for Diablo or otherwise, so I'd disagree with saying that it was that game that influenced D&D there. D&D works less off a tree system than it does a tinker-toy prereq system, anyway.

I am curious though - magic item influence from Diablo? How so? The whole X property being on Y weapon/item schtick was being done back in 1st ed, far as I can remember. *shrug*

 

[Hussar]

Most people are already familar with spell points thanks to many other games. AFAIK, the original Final Fantasy used spell slots, but I can't think of much else.

Of course, it's my belief that spell points are actually more complex on a deep level than slots, since small changes can result in major differences in ability - dropping one too many charm persons back in town might mean ending up one point shy of that Time Stop or something. It's harder to grasp the implications of resource expenditure. This isn't really a problem in say WoW, since mana is regening constantly - mess things up a little up and you're only a couple seconds away from having it back.

While the idea of constantly replenishing resources works really well in CRPG's, it would be an accounting NIGHTMARE in a P&P game. How many DM's REALLY keep that close of a track on time passing? Down to the minute? I can usually ballpark how many hours the party has been on the go, maybe even to the half hour, but, trying to keep track of time any finer than that would be a massive pain.

OTOH, I do like the idea of breaking the 4 encounters/day paradigm. I could see rules for either spell points, hit point pools, uses/day abilities, or even better, uses/encounter abilities a la Tome of Magic.

It's come full circle really. D&D inspired all crpgs including WoW. But D20 seems to have been heavily influenced by Diablo (feat trees, magic items, etc.) which was also a big influence on WoW as well.

I would suggest taking a look at Fallout before making these claims. Also, considering the very large number of tabletop games that had already gone this direction - GURPS, Vampire, RIFTS just to name three - it's perhaps a little difficult to say that 3e was "heavily influenced" by Diablo. I think it's more a case that people are more familiar with Diablo due to its popularity.

 

[Victim]

While the idea of constantly replenishing resources works really well in CRPG's, it would be an accounting NIGHTMARE in a P&P game. How many DM's REALLY keep that close of a track on time passing? Down to the minute? I can usually ballpark how many hours the party has been on the go, maybe even to the half hour, but, trying to keep track of time any finer than that would be a massive pain.

Yeah, I never said that was a good idea. It's just one of the reasons why spell points work better in MMOs and Diablo - a weak spell isn't going take away a high level one due to the breakpoints in costs, because a few seconds of regen will cover the lack. If resources are fixed for extended periods, then weak powers can end up costing higher level powers. Then spell point use is far more complex.

OTOH, I do like the idea of breaking the 4 encounters/day paradigm. I could see rules for either spell points, hit point pools, uses/day abilities, or even better, uses/encounter abilities a la Tome of Magic.

Yeah, me too.

 

[Moon-Lancer]

now that i think about it, chrono cross used d&ds wizard spell system.