DDXP characters - unexpected tactics?

[hong]

The fact that it's a straight-up contest of Strength, that's what.

Well, it's no longer a straight-out contest of Strength, since everything now works on the (X atk) vs (Y def) basis. Both sides of the equation have the +level/2 mod built in, and the defense can be Ref, AC or something else besides Str.

 

[Dausuul]

Well, it's no longer a straight-out contest of Strength, since everything now works on the (X atk) vs (Y def) basis. Both sides of the equation have the +level/2 mod built in, and the defense can be Ref, AC or something else besides Str.

And that's as it should be. I should probably have qualified that my statement was in regards to 3.5E. I just have major issues with a system in which the big, strong, clumsy guy is better off than the small, quick, nimble guy when fighting on a cliff edge or other precarious position.

 

[Dormain1]

The fact that it's a straight-up contest of Strength, that's what. If I'm playing the most nimble halfling in the world, a 20th-level rogue to boot; and I'm near the edge of a cliff; and a drunken ogre comes charging at me; can I nimbly spring aside at the last moment and watch him go tumbling to his doom? Can I even just step aside and not fall myself? Nope. I've got to beat the ogre's Strength check, with a +4 bonus for his size and a -4 penalty for mine, and if I lose, over I go.

I've got no objection in principle to shove-you-off-a-cliff mechanics, in fact I think they're a splendid thing if done well. But bull rushing is not done well.

If said rogue had a readied action to dodge out to the way, it would be a mute issue, he could dodge out of the way and watch as the ogre fall to its death. the bull rush provokes AoO and if the rogue was that nimble the orge would fail to hit in the first place, the whole strength check was as a result of being pushed and I wouldn't expect a nimble rogue to beat a drunken ogre.

Im not saying that bullrush was done well just like quite a few 3.x rules they were overly complicated, in fact it had a few house rules against it IMC, but the above example required the rogue being caught flat footed to be pushed over the cliff.

The biggest problem with 3.x was the need to check if you are using the rules right, if something feels wrong it probably is but so many of the rules just didnt make sense.

 

[Dausuul]

If said rogue had a readied action to dodge out to the way, it would be a mute issue, he could dodge out of the way and watch as the ogre fall to its death. the bull rush provokes AoO and if the rogue was that nimble the orge would fail to hit in the first place, the whole strength check was as a result of being pushed and I wouldn't expect a nimble rogue to beat a drunken ogre.

Let's review the bull rush rules:

BULL RUSH

You can make a bull rush as a standard action (an attack) or as part of a charge. When you make a bull rush, you attempt to push an opponent straight back instead of damaging him. You can only bull rush an opponent who is one size category larger than you, the same size, or smaller.

Initiating a Bull Rush

First, you move into the defender’s space. Doing this provokes an attack of opportunity from each opponent that threatens you, including the defender. (If you have the Improved Bull Rush feat, you don’t provoke an attack of opportunity from the defender.) Any attack of opportunity made by anyone other than the defender against you during a bull rush has a 25% chance of accidentally targeting the defender instead, and any attack of opportunity by anyone other than you against the defender likewise has a 25% chance of accidentally targeting you. (When someone makes an attack of opportunity, make the attack roll and then roll to see whether the attack went astray.)

Second, you and the defender make opposed Strength checks. You each add a +4 bonus for each size category you are larger than Medium or a -4 penalty for each size category you are smaller than Medium. You get a +2 bonus if you are charging. The defender gets a +4 bonus if he has more than two legs or is otherwise exceptionally stable.

Bull Rush Results

If you beat the defender’s Strength check result, you push him back 5 feet. If you wish to move with the defender, you can push him back an additional 5 feet for each 5 points by which your check result is greater than the defender’s check result. You can’t, however, exceed your normal movement limit. (Note: The defender provokes attacks of opportunity if he is moved. So do you, if you move with him. The two of you do not provoke attacks of opportunity from each other, however.)

If you fail to beat the defender’s Strength check result, you move 5 feet straight back to where you were before you moved into his space. If that space is occupied, you fall prone in that space.

The bull rush does provoke an AoO, but it's not like grappling; a successful AoO does not abort the bull rush unless it does enough damage to kill the bull rusher. It's unlikely the rogue is in a position to sneak attack--the squares where an ally could provide him with flanking are squares the ogre just charged through--so the ogre will very likely survive. And bull rushing does not require an attack roll. The ogre cannot "fail to hit." He just has to win a contest of Strength, with a net +8 bonus for the size difference and another +2 for charging, and that's the end of it.

If it required a touch attack, or you had the option to oppose with Dexterity, or even if you could just make a Reflex save and change the square into which you moved--sidestepping instead of being driven straight back--it might be okay. But bull rush as written makes no allowances for that. The only counter, as you say, is a readied action... and to quote the signature of a board regular whose name escapes me at the moment, when the response to "This is a bad rule" begins with "If you use a readied action," that's not a good sign.

 

[Dormain1]

You can make a bull rush as a standard action (an attack) or as part of a charge.

Both of these require attack rolls, you cant push someone unless you can hit them

all i was pointing out was that to step out of the way of a charging ogre requires a readied action, the only other mechanic close to this is overrun which gives the defender a chance to dodge, representing the fact that they are not the intended target, but this is not the case with bullrush.

I was not saying that the AoO interuppts the bull rush like grapple, but you could easily trip with a weapon and there is only a +4 for size, also you can drop to the floor as a free action and watch the ogre run over you as the str check is likely to result in the ogre moving over the edge

all this depend on how you run combat, if you say that the ogre was bullrushing you of the edge and the DM made his rolls, then the PC said im using my AoO to fall prone what would you adjudicate? does the ogre fall of the edge because nothing was opposing him, does the ogre end his action standing on the prone PC or that the PC cant fall prone because it wasn't an attack.

Your example was of a rogue dodging out of the way, i said it was only possible with a readied action, rogues dont get to dodge away from a fighters attack just because they are nimble they have to be ready to dodge.

If there is no attack roll then this has got to be the best way of delivering touch spells

 

[Hypersmurf]

Both of these require attack rolls, you cant push someone unless you can hit them

Bull Rush does not require an attack roll. Instead of making a melee attack (which would require the attack roll), you're making a Bull Rush (which does not).

I was not saying that the AoO interuppts the bull rush like grapple, but you could easily trip with a weapon and there is only a +4 for size...

... and it's an opposed Strength check. In all likelihood, the ogre is somewhat stronger than the rogue.

... also you can drop to the floor as a free action and watch the ogre run over you as the str check is likely to result in the ogre moving over the edge

Firstly, you're back to requiring a readied action; in 3.5, you can't take free actions when it is not your turn. Secondly, the ogre was always intending to stop before he went over the edge; why would your dropping prone force him to move an extra square?

... then the PC said im using my AoO to fall prone what would you adjudicate? ... or that the PC cant fall prone because it wasn't an attack.

This one - "fall prone" is not something you can do as part of an AoO.

-Hyp.

 

[Dormain1]

Firstly, you're back to requiring a readied action; in 3.5, you can't take free actions when it is not your turn. Secondly, the ogre was always intending to stop before he went over the edge; why would your dropping prone force him to move an extra square?

So it takes less time to attack someone with an AoO than it does to fall prone

i was thinking you could use an free action instead of the attack action for an AoO

the ogre would be force to move that extra square due to there being no-one to resist his momentum or the fact you cant end your movement in an occupied square

I am really surprised that this is the only standard attack option that doesn't require a roll to hit, sorry it must have been a house rule that any attack action required a roll to hit

I was only thinking of ways for Dausuul to achieve his dramatic effect, and that is with a readied action like i said

sorry to hyjack the thread

 

[Dausuul]

Both of these require attack rolls, you cant push someone unless you can hit them

It's an attack action, not an actual attack. When attack actions require attack rolls, they say so--see the Disarm maneuver. This one doesn't. It lays out the entire procedure, step by step, start to finish, and nowhere is there an attack roll involved except when the defender makes an AoO.

all this depend on how you run combat, if you say that the ogre was bullrushing you of the edge and the DM made his rolls, then the PC said im using my AoO to fall prone what would you adjudicate?

I would adjudicate that that's a reasonable response, but that is also a house ruling which is in no way supported by the rules as written.

Your example was of a rogue dodging out of the way, i said it was only possible with a readied action, rogues dont get to dodge away from a fighters attack just because they are nimble...

Sure they do. It's called a Dexterity bonus to Armor Class.

 

[keterys]

For reference, getting a save against being pushed off a cliff is part of the standard rules for bull rush in 4e (as revealed by the document that showed how grab and bull rush work)

I don't know if it's also part of the rules for 'being pushed or slid off a cliff', but I'm willing to believe the DM made the right call.

 

[Hypersmurf]

So it takes less time to attack someone with an AoO than it does to fall prone

Time has nothing to do with it. When an AoO is provoked, you can make a melee attack, or certain things that state they can be substituted for a melee attack. 'Fall prone' does not say it can be substituted.

i was thinking you could use an free action instead of the attack action for an AoO

Not according to the rules.

the ogre would be force to move that extra square due to there being no-one to resist his momentum or the fact you cant end your movement in an occupied square

But if you accidentally end in an occupied square, you return to the last space you legally occupied... which is two spaces before the cliff, not one space after the cliff.

Aside from which, I don't think there's anything preventing him Bull Rushing the prone rogue off the cliff. I might grant the rogue the +4 bonus for being especially stable, but I wouldn't make him immune...

-Hyp.