Dead in one blow

[Phlebas]

How'd he do that? Up The Walls doesn't require a Jump check for success. As long as you're psionically focused, you can walk/run across walls and such with ease, at least if you go back down to normal ground by the end of the turn (otherwise you fall if you end your turn still on a wall/ceiling that you wouldn't normally stick to).

Maybe you meant to say he failed his Tumble check to move through the minotaur zombie's reach without provoking an Attack of Opportunity?

sorry, didn't make myself clear. psychic warior had no tumble so ran over the zombie (AoO missed) in a 10' corridor, and then jumped down to land behind in the chamber - dm ruled a simple jump check, but rolled a 3, so the 'fall if you end your turn still on a wall' rule applied

This didn't make a huge difference to the subsequent crit as the blow would have hit had he been upright & swinging,

So the Artificer didn't have any useful wands or scrolls? I mean, isn't using magic items really really well just about the only thing that Artificers do, besides try infusing spell effects briefly onto items to do basically the same thing? What kind of a useless magic-item-ignorant anti-stereotypical Artificer did you have?

it was a minor encounter and we tried to burn it the old fashioned way (flasks of oil). The artificier uses most of his skills in buffing the warforged and miscellaneous stuff rather than trying to blast stuff. He had also buffed ready for the BBEG and so didn't really want to change tactics - he had an undead bane crossbow and missed lots.

Well, I'm inclined to say it's more the middle answer than either of the others, but definitely at least a bit of each. A crit by the enemy is always a sign of bad luck, especially when it's an axe that crits. A minotaur is quite big and strong, but normally it's just good on offense but easily slain by adventurers of similar level/hit dice.

The zombie template, however, significantly boosts a minotaur's survivability. It's kind of odd though that bludgeoning weapons are not terribly effective against zombies in 3.5. Also, the zombie template in 3.5 seems to really undervalue the Challenge Rating of zombies, especially the big zombies. A minotaur zombie ought to have a higher CR than 4, but somehow, it does not. A normal minotaur is the same CR, but less than half as tough, with just a bit of its racial traits lost to the zombie template. Really stupid 3.5 design.

That said, a group of 6th-level-ish adventurers should have been able to handle it better than you guys did, it seems. I'm not sure why the Psychic Warrior tried to go up the walls, but I dunno if there was enough room in the corridor or whatever for the rest of you to help fight it otherwise. Depending on his feats/powers, it may've been a stupid tactical decision, but otherwise it may've just been bad luck alone that ruined that tactic.

like i said before, with hindsight there were a few alternatives we could have tried - but we had a plan (soak it in oil, light it, surround it, splat it) that just went the way of the pear.
just remember though, if the psychic warrior had been standing next to the warforged, ready to melee, no jumping or running on walls, he would still have been killed outright by the crit. If he hadn't done anything the blow had a 50/50 of hitting (& Killing) my ranger. So the tactics, daft or not, really didn't impact the death. the only alternative would have been a shoot and run tactics or just hide behind the warforged (which is the warforgeds characters solution to every fight btw)

The Artificer should have some means of blasting stuff with magic items by 6th-level, unless he's really, really lame and terrible at what he does. There's no excuse for an adventuring Artificer to not have gotten a useful Wand or batch of Scrolls containing destructive spells by that point in his adventuring career. Or at least some really well-chosen offensive infusions.

It would have behooved you all to carry some flasks of acid or alchemist's fire, if you had no serious blasters in the party, and maybe some throwing axes. A well-prepared party will have melee and ranged weapons of varying damage types to get past the defenses of monsters, so it would be wise to carry some throwing axes, some light hammers or slings, and the usual bows/crossbows/javelins. The main problem though, I think, was the Artificer's failure to have anything useful, considering his class' entire schtick of being magic-item-masters.

My ranger specialises in throwing axes, and carries 4, but was standing up front rather than trying to throw through the front rank. We hit it up front with two flask of oil and some holy water (and then missed with the torch to light it....). We thought about alchemists fire but we were down to our last flask and didn't think it was needed

Not saying we handled it brilliantly, but for an misc encounter, in a straight corridor - room - corridor set up, we would have been OK apart from the crit.

 

[kensanata]

Why?

Assuming that my players love their characters and don't enjoy to see them die, and assuming that I feel compelled to provide for an entertaining evening for everybody, I must make the game dangerous but not deadly. Missing a spot check, misinterpreting a hint, and walking at the back of the party without looking back, and a lucky crit by a greathorn minotaur should not mean instant death if I want to keep the players at my table, I think. Dropping the player to -9 by accident provided excellent drama, but it felt too close for comfort...

 

[Arkhandus]

Alright, with the extra information now noted, I have to admit it was more a matter of poor circumstances and bad luck from the crit, only partially a result of subpar tactics. The crit may've been avoided if just moving forward a bit and going total defense (with enough Tumble ranks it'll yield more AC anyway) for a turn, starting out cautious while the others pull out their flasks and stuff. The jacked-up AC might've turned the threat confirmation roll into a failure. And, if so, could've turned the battle easier.

But still, minotaur zombies are definitely under-CR'd by 1 or 2 points. Always 'ware the minotaur!

At least it's a lesson learned: Do not underestimate really big zombies, especially axe-wielding zombies, for they art tough and hit very hard.

Also: remind your party's artificer later to pick up a Wand of Scorching Ray or something.

 

[RFisher]

Don't even get me started on random encounters. I flat-out don't use them.

OK, but don't get me started either. I find they serve important purposes & that the game is worse without them.

Throwing a random encounter at the players and killing them from a lucky roll isn't fun.

Although I can agree with that. I fiat-reversed a death by a "random" encounter myself. (I don't think it was really random, but it was serving the role of one.)

I don't like damage multipliers for crits, for a couple of reasons. One is the crazy-high damage that's possible. The other is that sometimes you get a crit and then roll really crappy damage.

I prefer "crits do maximum (normal) damage." So if you normally do 1-6 points, a critical does 6 points: it was your "best shot." You're not outside the normal range of damage, it was just a really good hit. A critical failure allows one free attack from your enemy, or "something bad" at the DM's option (e.g. drop your weapon, et cetera).

(Actually, one could argue that "critical hits" shouldn't be based on the "to hit" roll at all, because what *really* determines how good you did is your damage roll. Thus, critical hits should be damage-roll based. So if it's 1-6, then a 6 is a critical hit. "Exploding dice" could also be used in this kind of concept, but it would work best if there was a standard 'damage die' type, rather than variable types -- otherwise the chance to 'explode' could vary a lot.)

What I told the players in my recent classic D&D campaign: A critical hit occurs when you roll maximum damage. The result is that you do maximum damage.

 

[Philotomy Jurament]

What I told the players in my recent classic D&D campaign: A critical hit occurs when you roll maximum damage. The result is that you do maximum damage.

That's really my preferred approach, too, but I allow the "extra" critical hits as a sop to my players, who get all excited over them.

 

[RFisher]

Assuming that my players love their characters and don't enjoy to see them die, and assuming that I feel compelled to provide for an entertaining evening for everybody, I must make the game dangerous but not deadly.

Well, having the rules bent to prevent my PC from dying ruins the game more for me than my PC dying does. The DM ensuring that nothing my PC chooses to do will be fatal would likewise ruin the game for me. When I'm a player, it's my job to try to keep the game from being deadly; not the DM's.

But, of course, that's just me.

So, perhaps this is an aspect of the game you should discuss with your players.

 

[Lord Zardoz]

The zombie template, however, significantly boosts a minotaur's survivability. It's kind of odd though that bludgeoning weapons are not terribly effective against zombies in 3.5. Also, the zombie template in 3.5 seems to really undervalue the Challenge Rating of zombies, especially the big zombies. A minotaur zombie ought to have a higher CR than 4, but somehow, it does not. A normal minotaur is the same CR, but less than half as tough, with just a bit of its racial traits lost to the zombie template. Really stupid 3.5 design.

If I recall, the reasoning behind a Zombie's DR is that its flesh cannot be injured, and protects it, at least as far as the flavor goes. As for the mechanical reasoning, it is just to set it apart from Skeletons. The other reason for DR of Slashing is to make most ranged weapons ineffective.

Now, in a toe to toe slug fest, Zombies lose out on several things. First, they only get partial actions, so no full attack. If the base creature gets Claw / Claw / Bite, the Zombie just bites. The other consideration is the movement. If you can force it to move, it cannot attack. A 1st level character with a Slashing Polearm can take down the minotaur zombie single handedly (well, provided the character has the same movement rate). It is even easier if the character has a sufficient quantity of throwing axes on hand.

On top of that, you have the ability to turn it, or ward it off with Protection from Evil.

Zombies are only difficult to deal with if you insist on entering melee them.

END COMMUNICATION

 

[Philotomy Jurament]

Well, having the rules bent to prevent my PC from dying ruins the game more for me than my PC dying does...But, of course, that's just me.

No, it's not. It's me, too.

 

[GlassJaw]

I fiat-reversed a death by a "random" encounter myself. (I don't think it was really random, but it was serving the role of one.)

And that's largely why I hate random encounters. If you don't want a PC to die from a random encounter, I would argue that encounter is meaningless in the grand scale of the campaign. If it's meaningless, why have the encounter at all?

I much prefer less encounters that are all somewhat important than more frequent encounters that have little to no bearing on the campaign.

Plus, D&D is slow enough as it is, I don't need to slow the game down further with meaningless encounters.

 

[Lord Zardoz]

Assuming that my players love their characters and don't enjoy to see them die, and assuming that I feel compelled to provide for an entertaining evening for everybody, I must make the game dangerous but not deadly. Missing a spot check, misinterpreting a hint, and walking at the back of the party without looking back, and a lucky crit by a greathorn minotaur should not mean instant death if I want to keep the players at my table, I think. Dropping the player to -9 by accident provided excellent drama, but it felt too close for comfort...

Not a bad way to handle it. My way around unwanted player death has been much more blatant. After a TPK, the players found themselves before Hiddukel (an evil god of Lies, Betrayal, and Greed with a perchant for making deals). Hiddukel offered them a deal, which they chose to take, and the game went on from there. It is a pretty literal Deus Ex Machina, but it serves a few purposes.

1) It lets me correct mistakes in encounter difficulty after the fact.
2) It provides an in game, story related explanation for why the characters are not dead outright.
3) It proves an in game, story related hook that the characters could not ignore. "Hiddukel sends you a divine vision saying you must obtain the McGuffen. Considering your soul and life are in hock, it would behoove you to comply..."

The 3rd reason has not yet come into play, but its nice to have an iron clad fallback to get my players to do something (such as spare the life of a villain NPC that I do not want to have dead yet).

END COMMUNICATION