MGibster
Legend
As a long time fan of Deadlands, I'm completely onboard for the same reasons. Removing the Confederacy won't leave a bad taste in the mouths of those who might otherwise be interested in the game.
Deadlands is retconning the Confederacy away. They lost the war, no longer playable.
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As a long time fan of Deadlands, I'm completely onboard for the same reasons. Removing the Confederacy won't leave a bad taste in the mouths of those who might otherwise be interested in the game.
Also I would like to point out you can get a PDF of the new edition of Savage Worlds for $10.
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That sadly seems to be the general trend these days.
If you apply the reasoning here to other RPGs you would gave to alter or even axe a lot of settings. Alternate WW2 settings where Germany won or at least still exist would be impossible as would be knock offs like the Coalition in (Savage) Rifts. Even ancient Rome would be critical as they were big slavers as well as were many other nations in history.
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MGibster
Legend
It's tough to discuss this without bringing up current political events. But the big difference is that most settings that show Germany having won the war don't encourage player characters who are members of the Wehrmacht or the SS. When Rifts was first released the Coalition was presented as the bad guy. You could play a Coalition soldier, SAMAS armor dude, or something else but it was generally presumed that you no longer were part of that particular organization. (I understand a Rifts book was later released depicting a more sympathetic view of the Coalition but I've never read it myself.)
Most people who were critical of Deadlands' victorious Confederacy weren't upset by that one simple component. They were critical because of the game's portrayal of the CSA as a nation that elected to end slavery. I don't believe Shane Hensley is a Confederate apologist and the more unpleasant aspects of the Confederacy and the legacy of slavery and racism were excised from the game because he just wanted everyone to have a good time with cowboys and zombies. Unfortunately the CSA of Deadlands really plays into the Southern apologists' narratives that the war was not about slavery.
Mod Edit: Fixed incorrect quote attribution. ~Umbran
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From what I've seen in Savage Rifts it takes away the focus from the Coalition and directs characters to join the Tomorrow Legion, a mostly altruistic faction. In the new Coalition themed playtest book it suggests if you start characters as Coalition members that they soon see the error of their ways and defect to the Tomorrow Legion.
The Rifts purist I know (granted not enough of a purist to use the Palladium rules set haha) doesn't use the Legion in his game. He claims that it doesn't feel like Rifts, so his characters are all unaffiliated mercenaries.
The Rifts purist I know (granted not enough of a purist to use the Palladium rules set haha) doesn't use the Legion in his game. He claims that it doesn't feel like Rifts, so his characters are all unaffiliated mercenaries.
the Jester
Legend
Hmmm.
I get where they're coming from, but I have a longstanding hatred of retcons. So I have mixed feelings about this. If I was in, or running, an ongoing DL campaign, this would discourage me from buying new material because it wouldn't fit the setting I was running anymore. And just because a game features the CSA, that certainly doesn't mean it promotes it or the values it fought for.
On the other hand, I get where he's coming from and agree with a lot of his points. So... yeah, mixed feelings. My hate of retcons vs. my desire for- dare I say it- social justice is an interesting dilemma to face.
I get where they're coming from, but I have a longstanding hatred of retcons. So I have mixed feelings about this. If I was in, or running, an ongoing DL campaign, this would discourage me from buying new material because it wouldn't fit the setting I was running anymore. And just because a game features the CSA, that certainly doesn't mean it promotes it or the values it fought for.
On the other hand, I get where he's coming from and agree with a lot of his points. So... yeah, mixed feelings. My hate of retcons vs. my desire for- dare I say it- social justice is an interesting dilemma to face.
At least in the original Palladium rules Coalition campaigns were fully supported and in no way discouraged.
Not sure if the Legion fits or not, after all there are other "goody goody" organizations out there, but they do feel a bit artificial, but so does much of Rifts. I only dislike it when RPGs push you towards or assume membership in a specific organitation as imo that is needlessly limiting options.
I also dislike retcons alot, especially when done for non-game reasons like here. But as I am not american I don't get the "Confederacy scare". To me, that is ancient history, nothing more.
Luckily its unlikely that in Savage Rifts they will be allowed to retcon that Tolkeen won the war against the Coalition, even though some players would likely be very pleased by this.
Sure, a game can feature the CSA without promoting it. The problem being that Deadlands did promote the Confederacy (though thankfully not the values it stood for).
Had the CSA been portrayed as a horrific regime on-par with Nazi Germany, it would have been far less problematic.
GreyLord
Legend
Perceptions on things change as time passes.
I had some African American Friends that proudly flew a Confederate flag.
Why? They told me they were proud of their Southern roots and heritage.
Things change. It's interesting how people change the meanings of things at times, and try to force others to say that it HAS to mean a specific thing.
Ironically, these days I suppose white people would call them racist for flying that flag. Others might as well. It didn't mean that to them though. Not how they explained it to me.
I do not know what their perception of the Confederacy was, or exactly their purposes in flying the flag, just what they told me. They had a Confederate flag license plate as well. Was it there way of proclaiming they were from Georgia and not From Florida or the North USA, or something else? I don't know, it's been a little while since I talked to them (life moves on, I move, they move, etc...etc...etc).
Today, I suppose with how we are supposed to think, we'd be forced to think the worst of them, even though they were African Americans from the US South. I have no idea what others thought of them in their hometown.
It just seems to me that at times, people react the way they feel they should react, or that they feel others should have reacted rather than what many people, some who do not fit the stereotype.
It's not always clear cut, right and wrong. I would argue that the Civil War ultimately was about Slavery, but ironically Slavery was never outlawed for the North (yes, there were slave states fighting on the North's side and while it got outlawed in the south by the Federal Government, it was NOT outlawed in the North until LATER with amendments to force the change, one could say it was even a particularly messy situation that propped up that the US has basically ignored in it's history books in trying to paint the South as the Slavers and the North as the Good guys...ignoring later conflicts in these same slave states in regards to getting the slavery out of them). Things tend to be more complex in actual history than simply black and white, and maybe it was this grey area where these neighbors of mine were at with their Flag and Southern heritage.
I have a feeling that the more current stereotypes rather than the more traditional values and ideas espoused by these neighbors are what have influenced this change in the DL books. Many seem to latch onto the modern telling of what the Confederacy was and what the Flag stood for rather than what some of those (even my neighbors, who seemed particularly proud of a Southern Heritage) seem to hold in the past.
That said, this change to the Deadlands doesn't really bother me at all. In fact, I feel I strongly support the idea. I ALSO feel STRONGLY that the original author and creator (and I imagine that this is who this guy is) SHOULD RETAIN the ability to say WHAT IS CANON and WHAT IS NOT in their creations. (for example, I feel George Lucas, far more than Disney or even the approved authors and fiction he had with the original EU, has a say one what is actually Star Wars Canon...and what is not). (In the same light, whether Gygax or Arneson, I would have rather they remained in control of their creation [jointly??? as unlikely as that may have been] rather than have lost it. Who knows what we may have ended up with today if such had occurred?).
No fan or others should be able to tell the original creators how their created world should be if the original creator is still around. If this is what the creator of Deadlands wants...GOOD for them. I hope they have a GREAT deal of success and do NOT lose sales. In fact, in exerting their own ability to define the background and canon of their creation is terrific in my view. I hope that they would be rewarded for standing on that and holding onto what they feel they should and CAN do. I hope his sales actually increase.
Unfortunately, I've never really been into the Deadland RPG. It's not an area that particularly interested me. I hope he has a massive amount of success in exerting his control over his creation, and I hope his thoughts that they will lose money for this move are unfounded. Hopefully, this is a good change and his core audience is very receptive to it. I hope them the best of luck and fortune.
I had some African American Friends that proudly flew a Confederate flag.
Why? They told me they were proud of their Southern roots and heritage.
Things change. It's interesting how people change the meanings of things at times, and try to force others to say that it HAS to mean a specific thing.
Ironically, these days I suppose white people would call them racist for flying that flag. Others might as well. It didn't mean that to them though. Not how they explained it to me.
I do not know what their perception of the Confederacy was, or exactly their purposes in flying the flag, just what they told me. They had a Confederate flag license plate as well. Was it there way of proclaiming they were from Georgia and not From Florida or the North USA, or something else? I don't know, it's been a little while since I talked to them (life moves on, I move, they move, etc...etc...etc).
Today, I suppose with how we are supposed to think, we'd be forced to think the worst of them, even though they were African Americans from the US South. I have no idea what others thought of them in their hometown.
It just seems to me that at times, people react the way they feel they should react, or that they feel others should have reacted rather than what many people, some who do not fit the stereotype.
It's not always clear cut, right and wrong. I would argue that the Civil War ultimately was about Slavery, but ironically Slavery was never outlawed for the North (yes, there were slave states fighting on the North's side and while it got outlawed in the south by the Federal Government, it was NOT outlawed in the North until LATER with amendments to force the change, one could say it was even a particularly messy situation that propped up that the US has basically ignored in it's history books in trying to paint the South as the Slavers and the North as the Good guys...ignoring later conflicts in these same slave states in regards to getting the slavery out of them). Things tend to be more complex in actual history than simply black and white, and maybe it was this grey area where these neighbors of mine were at with their Flag and Southern heritage.
I have a feeling that the more current stereotypes rather than the more traditional values and ideas espoused by these neighbors are what have influenced this change in the DL books. Many seem to latch onto the modern telling of what the Confederacy was and what the Flag stood for rather than what some of those (even my neighbors, who seemed particularly proud of a Southern Heritage) seem to hold in the past.
That said, this change to the Deadlands doesn't really bother me at all. In fact, I feel I strongly support the idea. I ALSO feel STRONGLY that the original author and creator (and I imagine that this is who this guy is) SHOULD RETAIN the ability to say WHAT IS CANON and WHAT IS NOT in their creations. (for example, I feel George Lucas, far more than Disney or even the approved authors and fiction he had with the original EU, has a say one what is actually Star Wars Canon...and what is not). (In the same light, whether Gygax or Arneson, I would have rather they remained in control of their creation [jointly??? as unlikely as that may have been] rather than have lost it. Who knows what we may have ended up with today if such had occurred?).
No fan or others should be able to tell the original creators how their created world should be if the original creator is still around. If this is what the creator of Deadlands wants...GOOD for them. I hope they have a GREAT deal of success and do NOT lose sales. In fact, in exerting their own ability to define the background and canon of their creation is terrific in my view. I hope that they would be rewarded for standing on that and holding onto what they feel they should and CAN do. I hope his sales actually increase.
Unfortunately, I've never really been into the Deadland RPG. It's not an area that particularly interested me. I hope he has a massive amount of success in exerting his control over his creation, and I hope his thoughts that they will lose money for this move are unfounded. Hopefully, this is a good change and his core audience is very receptive to it. I hope them the best of luck and fortune.
But this is exactly the problem: ‘what the Flag stood for’ was slavery, but confederate apologists spent decades lying about that fact, to convince people it was about states rights and southern pride. Which is why you get a bunch of black guys proudly flying it, and why you get a whitewashed CSA in a weird-west RPG. And to people who know the truth, that’s offensive.
It’s like someone claiming the swastika is a symbol of white-pride rather than murder and oppression. It doesn’t matter if they honestly believe that, it’s still a lie.
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