Level Up (A5E) Deadlier combat

[Guest 6801328]

I’ve Thoughts shoot this long and hard; here’s what I’ve implemented at my table:


“Disabled, Dying, Death

When you fall to 0 hp, you do not fall unconscious. Instead, you are Disabled. While Disabled, your speed is halved and you can take either a Standard Action or a Quick Action on your turn. If you take your Attack Action, cast a Spell, or do any other strenuous activity (as determined by the DM), you fall Unconscious at the end of your turn and are Dying. If you take any damage while you are Disabled, you immediately fall Unconscious and are Dying.

Dying

At the start of your turn while Dying, you have to make a Death Saving Throw. You do not add any modifier to this roll, except what may be given by magic or some other source such as Bardic Inspiration. On a roll of 10 to 19, nothing happens. On a roll of 9 or below, you take a point of Exhaustion; or two if you roll a 1. On a roll of 20 or above, you are Stable and can spend a Hit Die, regaining consciousness if you do so. If you do not spend a Hit Die, you become Stable, but nothing else happens. If you take any damage while you are Dying, you suffer a Level of Exhaustion, or two if from a Critical Hit.”

This integrates Exhaustion and Hit Dice better into the game. It also creates a state where players know that they’re in danger. Now, instead of the Cleric having to save their Bonus Action for Healing Word, the other characters have a signal that lets them know that they need to play defensively. The Disabled Condition also allows the characters to take whatever actions they can to heal themselves with no issue; it only imposes penalties on offense. Even so, there is still the chance that the PC can have a heroic last stand. The Fighter can decide to hooks the bridge while everyone else flees, taking their Attack Action and Action Surge to do as much damage as possible knowing that they’ll start Dying at the end of their turn.

I also combine this with a rule that allows the players to heal themselves thru Healing Surges or Bonus Action Health Potions, so that they have some stuff they can do when separated from the healer or when there is no main healer.

I see what you are trying to accomplish, but the things you want to let the player do for themselves at 0 hp they could currently do when they're close to 0 hp, if they thought they needed to. It's not that players aren't smart enough to know when they're in the danger zone, it's that the danger zone isn't really all that dangerous. If falling to 0 carried more consequences than it does now, players would take defensive actions before reaching 0.

 

[tetrasodium]

5e removed natural armor? Not according to many monster Armor Class entries...

I’ve Thoughts shoot this long and hard; here’s what I’ve implemented at my table:


“Disabled, Dying, Death

When you fall to 0 hp, you do not fall unconscious. Instead, you are Disabled. While Disabled, your speed is halved and you can take either a Standard Action or a Quick Action on your turn. If you take your Attack Action, cast a Spell, or do any other strenuous activity (as determined by the DM), you fall Unconscious at the end of your turn and are Dying. If you take any damage while you are Disabled, you immediately fall Unconscious and are Dying.

Dying

At the start of your turn while Dying, you have to make a Death Saving Throw. You do not add any modifier to this roll, except what may be given by magic or some other source such as Bardic Inspiration. On a roll of 10 to 19, nothing happens. On a roll of 9 or below, you take a point of Exhaustion; or two if you roll a 1. On a roll of 20 or above, you are Stable and can spend a Hit Die, regaining consciousness if you do so. If you do not spend a Hit Die, you become Stable, but nothing else happens. If you take any damage while you are Dying, you suffer a Level of Exhaustion, or two if from a Critical Hit.”

This integrates Exhaustion and Hit Dice better into the game. It also creates a state where players know that they’re in danger. Now, instead of the Cleric having to save their Bonus Action for Healing Word, the other characters have a signal that lets them know that they need to play defensively. The Disabled Condition also allows the characters to take whatever actions they can to heal themselves with no issue; it only imposes penalties on offense. Even so, there is still the chance that the PC can have a heroic last stand. The Fighter can decide to hooks the bridge while everyone else flees, taking their Attack Action and Action Surge to do as much damage as possible knowing that they’ll start Dying at the end of their turn.

I also combine this with a rule that allows the players to heal themselves thru Healing Surges or Bonus Action Health Potions, so that they have some stuff they can do when separated from the healer or when there is no main healer.

Elfcrusher nailed it, but layers are smart enough to know that the CR9 dragon in the spoiler probably needs an 11 or better to hit them by the time they are low on health & 15/75hp has a great chance of both surviving one claw or bite & soaking 40+ damage from the breath or they would have done something other than hold their ground & go all out. The player could absolutely do something to "save" themselves from being in a state of "dying", it's just that the system actually incentiveizes them not to waste any resources trying whatever that something would have been

Spoiler: This Guy

 

[Guest 6801328]

the system actually incentiveizes them not to waste any resources trying whatever that something would have been

Yup.

 

[clsawyer0328]

I see what you are trying to accomplish, but the things you want to let the player do for themselves at 0 hp they could currently do when they're close to 0 hp, if they thought they needed to. It's not that players aren't smart enough to know when they're in the danger zone, it's that the danger zone isn't really all that dangerous. If falling to 0 carried more consequences than it does now, players would take defensive actions before reaching 0.

I agree, which is why they suffer Disadvantage when Dying. This also serves as a buffer, a “blinking red health” notification.

 

[tetrasodium]

I agree, which is why they suffer Disadvantage when Dying. This also serves as a buffer, a “blinking red health” notification.

just using averages, a 10th level barbarian with +4 con bonus is going to have around 115hp. Using that example of the cr9 dragon earlier that could be a 40+ point "buffer" Even for a high level barbarian that's a huge amount that works out to around a free 8th level casting of false life the party can't even cast once let alone on everyone in the party multiple times per rest. That's lightyears past "buffer"

 

[Guest 6801328]

I agree, which is why they suffer Disadvantage when Dying. This also serves as a buffer, a “blinking red health” notification.

I guess what I’m not understanding is why you think a blinking warning light is needed. Everybody knows how close to zero they are.

 

[Asisreo]

I see what you are trying to accomplish, but the things you want to let the player do for themselves at 0 hp they could currently do when they're close to 0 hp, if they thought they needed to. It's not that players aren't smart enough to know when they're in the danger zone, it's that the danger zone isn't really all that dangerous. If falling to 0 carried more consequences than it does now, players would take defensive actions before reaching 0.

On this subject, I've been thinking about turn-based RPG's and how they handle death. It actually is not difficult to resurrect someone in those games, either. There's phoenix downs and revives and life potions and they're all relatively easy to get around low-mid level (where the equivalent 5e game finds this problem).

Why are those games still difficult? Well, I think it's because even with an easy way to revive, it becomes a death spiral regardless. If a character dies, the healer must use their turn to rez the companion, essentially reducing the number of available actions for the round or reducing DPT (Damage per Turn). If the healer goes down, things get sticky almost immediately.

The most deadly attacks are always AoE attacks because if multiple people go down, it's unlikely that the player could bring them all back in one action without using an extremely rare resource.

Deadlier combat may just be as simple as targetting the healer and including more AoE attacks to your enemy's arsenal.

 

[tetrasodium]

On this subject, I've been thinking about turn-based RPG's and how they handle death. It actually is not difficult to resurrect someone in those games, either. There's phoenix downs and revives and life potions and they're all relatively easy to get around low-mid level (where the equivalent 5e game finds this problem).

Why are those games still difficult? Well, I think it's because even with an easy way to revive, it becomes a death spiral regardless. If a character dies, the healer must use their turn to rez the companion, essentially reducing the number of available actions for the round or reducing DPT (Damage per Turn). If the healer goes down, things get sticky almost immediately.

The most deadly attacks are always AoE attacks because if multiple people go down, it's unlikely that the player could bring them all back in one action without using an extremely rare resource.

Deadlier combat may just be as simple as targetting the healer and including more AoE attacks to your enemy's arsenal.

in combat healing in those games is extremely good... Close to prenerf healing spirit levels of good. Not only that, you mention phoenix down used in finalfantasy games. I may have missed the last couple, but those tend to be pretty rare and extremely rare if you can get them. That style is how it worked in previous editions as described in my post earlier up thread here & the included link it points to with the detailed breakdown here.

Here are some quotes from those two posts... 1:"A big part of why combat in older versions felt more deadly was because recovering was either going to demolish your piggybank restocking that bag of recovery stuff you slowly filled through all these levels of adventuring or it's going to take so long you really need to go back to town " & 2:"In practice everyone would look at how much hp they were down & if it was really bad they'd probably go back to a town or somewhere safe so the casters with heal spells & abilities could safely dump all of their spell slots leaving them in an effectively helpless condition but if not too bad they might spend whatever heals they have left over & rest while eating the attrition or proceeding to use some consumable resources like potions/scrolls/wand charges". They moved away from the model you cite & that's part of the problem. With that said, in combat healing is pretty boring as a PC, you can do it sometimes... but it's not something particularly fun for anyone but the guy chewing through heals to keep being a badass.

Edit: AOE attacks just really are not that dangerous unless everyone is low. Tossing out a fireball might get a wince or two across the group, but5e is designed around the assumption that you start every fight with full health... tossing out the third or fourth fireball in a fight for the the 3rdfight in a row is going to give off some serious "killer GM" vibes & justifiably bring up "so I think gmbob is angry at us, is anyone thinking of starting a game or willing to gm?" between games the next time that happens in the session

 

[Asisreo]

in combat healing in those games is extremely good... Close to prenerf healing spirit levels of good. Not only that, you mention phoenix down used in finalfantasy games. I may have missed the last couple, but those tend to be pretty rare and extremely rare if you can get them. That style is how it worked in previous editions as described in my post earlier up thread here & the included link it points to with the detailed breakdown here.

Here are some quotes from those two posts... 1:"A big part of why combat in older versions felt more deadly was because recovering was either going to demolish your piggybank restocking that bag of recovery stuff you slowly filled through all these levels of adventuring or it's going to take so long you really need to go back to town " & 2:"In practice everyone would look at how much hp they were down & if it was really bad they'd probably go back to a town or somewhere safe so the casters with heal spells & abilities could safely dump all of their spell slots leaving them in an effectively helpless condition but if not too bad they might spend whatever heals they have left over & rest while eating the attrition or proceeding to use some consumable resources like potions/scrolls/wand charges". They moved away from the model you cite & that's part of the problem. With that said, in combat healing is pretty boring as a PC, you can do it sometimes... but it's not something particularly fun for anyone but the guy chewing through heals to keep being a badass.

A secret to turn-based RPG's is that healing, as an isolated action, sucks no matter how much it heals (even full health heals).

How good healing is depends less on the absolute numbers and more of the relative numbers. For example, a character that has 10hp that gets healed for 10hp has gotten 100% HP back. A character with 20HP that gets healed for 10 HP only gets 50% HP back.

What's more important, though, is the target's effective HP. It's basically having the defensive stats of the target put into effect. The real HP of, say, a mage and brawler might be the same, but the effective HP of the brawler might be higher due to his defenses. This matters because healing (usually) doesn't take defensive stats into consideration from the target. It's either a base number, determined by the caster's stats, or a percentage of HP from the target (which only accounts for the real HP).

To keep it brief, healing the brawler with the same spell is more effective than healing the mage or even the healer themselves.

Healing, by itself, can be effective in D&D. From levels 1&2, a healer can recover an average of 7.5 HP which is close to maximum for certain 1st-level character and over half for most characters in-general. Your spell slots are low, though, and it's hard to manage them already.

In D&D 5e, being a dedicated healer that wants to keep people from going down almost requires you to go life cleric. Life cleric has many good things going for it. It turns cure wounds from 7.5 health to 11.5 which is plenty to top off all but the highest HP classes at 1st level. By 2nd level, they earn an extremely rare and coveted short-rest heal. Having a life cleric means that you can top off on health without spending HD or spell slots (this is extremely good).

Beacon of hope is good. Not in-combat while you might need concentration, but out-of-combat it can turn a simple second-level cure wounds to have 25 HP of healing, which is pretty great, actually. It also gives advantage to death saves, so if you're dedicated to being a healing type during combat, you have all the necessary tools. Most clerics perfer running around with spirit guardians, though. And I get the appeal of that. Personally, being a life cleric means I should focus on healing more (which I do enjoy doing).

Edit: AOE attacks just really are not that dangerous unless everyone is low. Tossing out a fireball might get a wince or two across the group, but5e is designed around the assumption that you start every fight with full health... tossing out the third or fourth fireball in a fight for the the 3rdfight in a row is going to give off some serious "killer GM" vibes & justifiably bring up "so I think gmbob is angry at us, is anyone thinking of starting a game or willing to gm?" between games the next time that happens in the session

Well, it's not about the AoE attacks in isolation. The point is to have multiple casualties at once so that the healer can't bring back multiple people up at once.

There's a couple of things to this.

1. Deadlier combat will always have a "killer GM" vibe no matter how well you think you'll hide it.

2. It's rare for a monster to have consecutive AoE's without them being limited. They're usually either on a recharge or a slot budget or a limited per day budget. The only monster I can think of is pit fiend and if you're fighting a pit fiend and fireball spam is actually hurting your team, you've got bigger concerns.

What a DM should do is play the game as normal (mostly attack rolls) until the characters with heals and/or the character with low defenses are relatively low on health. Then, they bring out the AoE's. The exception is recharge enemies, who should actually have their AoE spammed as much as possible since it can't recharge unless it's used and their recharge is their strongest ability.

 

[Scott Christian]

What a DM should do is play the game as normal (mostly attack rolls) until the characters with heals and/or the character with low defenses are relatively low on health. Then, they bring out the AoE's. The exception is recharge enemies, who should actually have their AoE spammed as much as possible since it can't recharge unless it's used and their recharge is their strongest ability.

Almost every GM I have ever seen does this to a degree. But they really go for the cinematic more than anything else. This becomes as large of a problem as "the killer GM." Botched rolls, reducing the opponent's hit points, suddenly having the super smart villain do something not too bright, watching a truly evil creature have the ability to squash all the death saves on a character and not doing it. We've all seen it.
In the end, there is a balance. The GM's that can prep with a great combat that is 80/20 (80% chance the players win, 20% chance the opponents win) has done their work diligently. It's not easy to do, but it makes for the most memorable boss encounters for me, as opposed to the creature going strong and then after it drops two characters, suddenly someone gets a killing blow. But that is the game. Choose consistent cinematic and the players begin to understand they are not going to die unless it is, well, cinematic. Choose the path of not budging, and you are going to have dead characters... a lot of dead characters, and sometimes for silly reasons. Choose to make a bunch of fights 95/5, and then the boss fight 80/20, you will have to do a lot of work as GM.