was
Adventurer
..Suggest a written contract with the terms clearly laid out.
Dealing with a devil
- Thread starter Grogg of the North
- Start date
..Suggest a written contract with the terms clearly laid out.
GMMichael
Guide of Modos
If your party needs protection just to get into the city, I don't think you have good odds on taking out the demon leadership.
Now I don't know about the shadow-undead, but I'm pretty sure that devils and demons are mortal (ha) enemies. Turn them on each other, and you'll just have the undead to worry about.
Greenfield
Adventurer
If the DM is doing his job right, there will indeed be a "Gotcha" in the mix.
My groups have come to fear such opportunities. The Devil's deal always sounds reasonable, even advantageous for the party to the point of the Devil being overly generous.
Presume that something will go wrong, and that the Devil will know it in advance.
Now, there is an obvious advantage for the Devil to have the Abyssal portal closed. The "Blood War" between Hell and the Abyss is a long running one, and if the Abyssal portal is closed and the Infernal one left open, then Hell has a permanent toehold on that world.
The less obvious consideration is that the Abyss can use the portals as a way to invade the Nine Hells directly. They have the greater numbers, after all, so the link is the advantage of the Abyss. So the Devil *really* wants one portal or the other closed as soon as possible.
Now if the Devil has the ritual to do that, you have to ask yourself, why isn't he using it? Yeah, it's great to manipulate mortals into taking all the risks, and if you can get them to pay for the privilege of taking all the risks, so much the sweeter.
But while the possession of that ritual gives him an apparent edge at the bargaining table, that edge is an illusion, a bluff. Yes, this mortal realm is at risk, so you need the ritual. But his realm is at risk as well, and his need at least as great as yours. He's hoping that you don't realize that. If you do, he doesn't get to have you pay him for the ritual. Instead he might end up having to pay you to perform it, because if he could, he would have already.
So don't be afraid to bargain hard when the time comes. And remember, even if you "win" at the bargaining table, there will be (or should be) an unforeseen price in the end.
<Story/tangent>
In one game I ran, the party needed information from a Devil lord. He was a gracious host when they came to see him, offering his promise of safe passage to and from his palace, and hat the rules of hospitality would apply during their visit: They would be treated as guests so long as the behaved as guests.
At dinner, he had brought in a number of lovely ladies, and he explained that sometimes people get sent to him who really didn't belong in Hell. Somebody sold a romantic rival or unwanted servant or slave, or some adventurer came down and couldn't get away. These ladies were all in that category, and what was more, all were still alive. The great heroes were given their choice of companions for the night. They were to "do their heroic best" (do I need to get specific?) with the girls. Each girl one of the heroes could bed, in a single night, would be afforded comfortable lodging and cre for the next year, with no torment provided. At the end of that time, if the party had used the information as promised, the ladies would be released back to the mortal realm, and provided for to a small extent.
The party Paladin was of course suspicious. He didn't want to bargain with the Devil in the first place, of course. He caught the catch in the deal: What of any children that resulted from the night's festivities? The Devil pointed out that the deal was only for the ladies. Any other souls released would be a separate deal.
The Devil wanted mortal agents, children of great heroes, raised in Hell, that he could let loose upon the world. "Devils" inthe world who weren't "outsiders", and couldn't be banished, or even easily traced.
One of my favorite parts of the scene was when someone asked about the female PCS. The Devil, ever generous, offered them as many innocent young men as they wanted. The men would be released immediately, and the female PCs would be afforded comfort in Hell for a year, then be allowed to leave.
"That's not fair!", cried the Paladin.
The Devil's response? "I don't know who has been spreading this tale that there's anything fair going on in Hell, but I'd really like to thank them! It makes these meetings so much more fun."
So a night of revelry for the PCs, with partners who are more than willing to participate, partners who truly don't belong there, and a chance to free them and return them home. Oh, and in addition, the Devil would give them the information they needed.
And just the one poison pill that made the entire deal unpalatable.
</story>
The point of the tale was that, while the Devil (being Lawful Evil) may make it a point of honor not to actually lie in the making of a bargain, if run properly he should always have not only an ace up his sleeve, but probably several extra sleeves as well.
My groups have come to fear such opportunities. The Devil's deal always sounds reasonable, even advantageous for the party to the point of the Devil being overly generous.
Presume that something will go wrong, and that the Devil will know it in advance.
Now, there is an obvious advantage for the Devil to have the Abyssal portal closed. The "Blood War" between Hell and the Abyss is a long running one, and if the Abyssal portal is closed and the Infernal one left open, then Hell has a permanent toehold on that world.
The less obvious consideration is that the Abyss can use the portals as a way to invade the Nine Hells directly. They have the greater numbers, after all, so the link is the advantage of the Abyss. So the Devil *really* wants one portal or the other closed as soon as possible.
Now if the Devil has the ritual to do that, you have to ask yourself, why isn't he using it? Yeah, it's great to manipulate mortals into taking all the risks, and if you can get them to pay for the privilege of taking all the risks, so much the sweeter.
But while the possession of that ritual gives him an apparent edge at the bargaining table, that edge is an illusion, a bluff. Yes, this mortal realm is at risk, so you need the ritual. But his realm is at risk as well, and his need at least as great as yours. He's hoping that you don't realize that. If you do, he doesn't get to have you pay him for the ritual. Instead he might end up having to pay you to perform it, because if he could, he would have already.
So don't be afraid to bargain hard when the time comes. And remember, even if you "win" at the bargaining table, there will be (or should be) an unforeseen price in the end.
<Story/tangent>
In one game I ran, the party needed information from a Devil lord. He was a gracious host when they came to see him, offering his promise of safe passage to and from his palace, and hat the rules of hospitality would apply during their visit: They would be treated as guests so long as the behaved as guests.
At dinner, he had brought in a number of lovely ladies, and he explained that sometimes people get sent to him who really didn't belong in Hell. Somebody sold a romantic rival or unwanted servant or slave, or some adventurer came down and couldn't get away. These ladies were all in that category, and what was more, all were still alive. The great heroes were given their choice of companions for the night. They were to "do their heroic best" (do I need to get specific?) with the girls. Each girl one of the heroes could bed, in a single night, would be afforded comfortable lodging and cre for the next year, with no torment provided. At the end of that time, if the party had used the information as promised, the ladies would be released back to the mortal realm, and provided for to a small extent.
The party Paladin was of course suspicious. He didn't want to bargain with the Devil in the first place, of course. He caught the catch in the deal: What of any children that resulted from the night's festivities? The Devil pointed out that the deal was only for the ladies. Any other souls released would be a separate deal.
The Devil wanted mortal agents, children of great heroes, raised in Hell, that he could let loose upon the world. "Devils" inthe world who weren't "outsiders", and couldn't be banished, or even easily traced.
One of my favorite parts of the scene was when someone asked about the female PCS. The Devil, ever generous, offered them as many innocent young men as they wanted. The men would be released immediately, and the female PCs would be afforded comfort in Hell for a year, then be allowed to leave.
"That's not fair!", cried the Paladin.
The Devil's response? "I don't know who has been spreading this tale that there's anything fair going on in Hell, but I'd really like to thank them! It makes these meetings so much more fun."
So a night of revelry for the PCs, with partners who are more than willing to participate, partners who truly don't belong there, and a chance to free them and return them home. Oh, and in addition, the Devil would give them the information they needed.
And just the one poison pill that made the entire deal unpalatable.
</story>
The point of the tale was that, while the Devil (being Lawful Evil) may make it a point of honor not to actually lie in the making of a bargain, if run properly he should always have not only an ace up his sleeve, but probably several extra sleeves as well.
Greenfield
Adventurer
Quite correct. The question was posed to the Paladin, who is bound not merely to the letter of the law, but to the spirit as well. The Paladin agreed that the party knew exactly what he was talking about. (We try to run a relatively family friendly game, so all understood why graphic detail was omitted.)
Even so, the Paladin tried to argue that his "Heroic Best" would be to rescue the ladies by any means possible. He got lots of dirty looks from the DM over that one.
Even so, the Paladin tried to argue that his "Heroic Best" would be to rescue the ladies by any means possible. He got lots of dirty looks from the DM over that one.
Celebrim
Legend
That seems a reasonable concern. Your DM would be amiss in my opinion to call something a devil and it not be marked by unrelenting ill-will toward the universe generally, and if it did not in fact have an angle by which it could profit at your expense. It would be I think a rule of Hell, that no devil may lawfully offer a contract in which he did not profit over the one contracted with. A devil which made a fair deal, which was good for both parties, would presumably lose his license and his stature and be subjected to the most painful and degrading tortures for so injuring the honor of Hell.
Sure. Presumably there are somethings a Neutral won't engage in, otherwise what is the difference between having an N on the sheet and an E?
Good luck with that...
Convince them that the premise of a deal with a devil is that you can't strike a bargain with one that doesn't screw yourself. If the deal didn't screw you, they wouldn't make it. Figure out what the catches are that the DM might have thought of. Worse come to worse, try to add clauses to the contract that close whatever loopholes you fear.
a) It would be quite logical to give you protection getting into something, but then try to insure you can't leave.
b) It would be quite logical to try to help you with the part of the task that benefits Hell, while stopping you, deceiving you, or contracting against you for whatever part of the task doesn't benefit Hell. Make sure you have clauses that don't let them both contract with you and work against you at the same time. In particular, it would seem to me that the obvious angle here is that the devils intend you to close two of the three portals successfully, and will do everything in their power to stop you closing the third and will have laid a trap to that end.
c) If you sell your brother's soul to hell, I suspect that gives hell full title to your soul as well by legal right. By what right would they receive stolen goods, but wouldn't they have a right to the souls of diabolists? Doesn't selling your brother's soul to the devil definitely change your alignment one step more evil? Make sure you know what laws govern the final disposition of souls in the afterlife. If there is some sort of grand contract enforced by a God of Destiny or some sort, you could find yourself on the wrong end of some cosmological boilerplate that says basically, "Whoever makes deals with devils, there soul is owned by devils if no other party can show they have a greater claim." You could end up a CE who betrayed demons to devils and as such, forfeited to Hell.
And if there are no catches, then you aren't really dealing with devils. Instead, you've got a DM that likes the word devil for all the resonance it has, but has no interest in actually following up on it. He's one of those figures praised by the devil in Greenfield's story, "I don't know who has been spreading this tale that there's anything fair going on in Hell, but I'd really like to thank them!" Of course, that's a lie. The devil knows well that it is the devil's themselves spreading the lie that there is something fair going on in Hell.
Greenfield
Adventurer
Want to salve a conscience on dealing in souls? That's one of the many uses for Detect Evil. If the person in question is dead, except for the soul in storage, and they're Evil, then guess where they're going?
At that point all you're doing is negotiating travel arrangements.
On the other hand, if anyone can make the Spellcraft check they'll realize that the gem is probably part of a Trap the Soul spell, and that the person inside can be released and fully restored. The only difference between selling the gem and selling a living, breathing person is that you don't have to look one of them in the eye before shipping them off.
So, things are either much easier, or much harder, depending on how it's handled.
Be aware that "profit" for the Devil could include leading one or more souls down the path of Evil.
At that point all you're doing is negotiating travel arrangements.
On the other hand, if anyone can make the Spellcraft check they'll realize that the gem is probably part of a Trap the Soul spell, and that the person inside can be released and fully restored. The only difference between selling the gem and selling a living, breathing person is that you don't have to look one of them in the eye before shipping them off.
So, things are either much easier, or much harder, depending on how it's handled.
Be aware that "profit" for the Devil could include leading one or more souls down the path of Evil.
Greenfield
Adventurer
A few thoughts on Devils:
I think we all may have different versions of Devils,and how they should be played.
My own vision of their role in the game may differ from yours, and we may both see them differently than someone else.
Some DMs use them as simply another monster, a combatant to be faced and defeated.
Some use the "Father of Lies" image, with Devils as masters of deception, to be trusted little if at all. As in, if he says "Good Morning", you check to see if it might be afternoon.
My style for them is driven by the phrase "Always Lawful Evil" in the stat block. They recognize the value of the infernal hierarchy, even if this particular Devil is currently doung scut work for it. You can't rise to a position of power in the organization by tearing the organization down, after all.
Additionally, I include a sharp limit on their behavior, driven by that forced alignment, and the fact that every one is, or dreams of being, someone to trade for souls.
That limit is that they can't actually tell you something that isn't true, particularly when discussing a contract. It's against their nature, and in particular, it would void the contract.
Now they can "lie" to you, in that they can mislead you, tell half-truths etc. , but they have to do it through factually accurate statements.
For example, he might say, "Think of the possibilities with this gift. You might ascend to the throne of the Emperor himself with what I'm offering."
Note that he didn't guarantee anything, he just encouraged the victim to use his imagination. Nothing in the deal says that any good will come of it at all.
In one of my more infamous deals, the Devil began with, "I have heard it said that, in Pompeii beneath the ashes, in the ancient temple of Helios the Titan of the sun, there lay the lost Dagger of Helios. Bring it to me. And, to show that I am not unfair, you have one full year to acquire it. Deliver it to me, in this place, one year from tonight and all debts are paid."
The clinkers in this one were many. First, the Devil accurately reported that he had heard it said that the dagger was there. That in no way implies that it actually is, or or that he knows where it is, or that the dagger is to be had at all. He might have asked a friend to say that to him, just so he could say he had heard it.
In a world where standard calendars may or may not match from one kingdom to he next, it's arguable that they could even know, exactly, when "one year from tonight" might be. If the party delivers the dagger a day early or a day late, they have failed to complete the contract.
If this place (an Inn on an island) isn't standing a year from now, the deal can't be completed.
There were a could of other opportunities to fail that were campaign specific, but you get the picture. On the face of it the deal seems relatively easy, with plenty of time to complete. A classic dungeon delve, temple ruins in a lost city. What could be more classic? And yet there is almost no chance of them completing the bargain.
He spoke "the truth", but he layered lie on lie on lie while doing it.
I think we all may have different versions of Devils,and how they should be played.
My own vision of their role in the game may differ from yours, and we may both see them differently than someone else.
Some DMs use them as simply another monster, a combatant to be faced and defeated.
Some use the "Father of Lies" image, with Devils as masters of deception, to be trusted little if at all. As in, if he says "Good Morning", you check to see if it might be afternoon.
My style for them is driven by the phrase "Always Lawful Evil" in the stat block. They recognize the value of the infernal hierarchy, even if this particular Devil is currently doung scut work for it. You can't rise to a position of power in the organization by tearing the organization down, after all.
Additionally, I include a sharp limit on their behavior, driven by that forced alignment, and the fact that every one is, or dreams of being, someone to trade for souls.
That limit is that they can't actually tell you something that isn't true, particularly when discussing a contract. It's against their nature, and in particular, it would void the contract.
Now they can "lie" to you, in that they can mislead you, tell half-truths etc. , but they have to do it through factually accurate statements.
For example, he might say, "Think of the possibilities with this gift. You might ascend to the throne of the Emperor himself with what I'm offering."
Note that he didn't guarantee anything, he just encouraged the victim to use his imagination. Nothing in the deal says that any good will come of it at all.
In one of my more infamous deals, the Devil began with, "I have heard it said that, in Pompeii beneath the ashes, in the ancient temple of Helios the Titan of the sun, there lay the lost Dagger of Helios. Bring it to me. And, to show that I am not unfair, you have one full year to acquire it. Deliver it to me, in this place, one year from tonight and all debts are paid."
The clinkers in this one were many. First, the Devil accurately reported that he had heard it said that the dagger was there. That in no way implies that it actually is, or or that he knows where it is, or that the dagger is to be had at all. He might have asked a friend to say that to him, just so he could say he had heard it.
In a world where standard calendars may or may not match from one kingdom to he next, it's arguable that they could even know, exactly, when "one year from tonight" might be. If the party delivers the dagger a day early or a day late, they have failed to complete the contract.
If this place (an Inn on an island) isn't standing a year from now, the deal can't be completed.
There were a could of other opportunities to fail that were campaign specific, but you get the picture. On the face of it the deal seems relatively easy, with plenty of time to complete. A classic dungeon delve, temple ruins in a lost city. What could be more classic? And yet there is almost no chance of them completing the bargain.
He spoke "the truth", but he layered lie on lie on lie while doing it.
Celebrim
Legend
All good liars know that 'the truth' is the best way to deceive.
Your interpretation is consistent with the historical portrayal of devils and diabolic figures in general.
I immediately caught most of the traps you mention, though I missed "in this place" possibly implying that the inn had to be intact, I caught that he didn't actually promise to be present and the contract does not compel him to be present. Good delivery contracts specify the obligations of the receiver as well.
I'd also be really worried about just exactly what a Devil could do with the dagger of a Sun Deity, and would have presumed that the Sun Deity probably wouldn't be particularly happy with me turning over his personal property to a Devil. I would be wondering if the implied terms of the deal were, "Assist me in blotting out the Sun, and become an enemy of all the Gods of light and good, and all your debts will be paid."
I wouldn't be terribly worried about figuring out the timing, as that's something you can calculate with sufficient astronomy. But the fact that its obvious that the dagger might not be where he says it is, and probably isn't, that you don't know what you are promising to deliver, and that the deal is void if the devil just chooses to show up late and for all I know that this place is on a volcano scheduled to blow sky high before the year is out mean that well, it's entirely a sucker bet even if it wasn't consorting with devils to enter into the agreement.
Incidentally, the Devil missed a trick in his contract. Good delivery contracts specify that the goods will be delivered undamaged. Without such a clause, no warranty for the merchandise is implied and the buyer accepts the merchandise in an 'as is' state without any implied suitability. A broken dagger would appear to fulfill the contract with the same literalness that assumes the inn must be intact for it to be 'this place'. If the Devil specified the dagger was undamaged, it not only would warranty the merchandise, but it offers another layer of making the task impossible - if the reason the dagger is lost that it is broken, good luck mending an artifact.
Your interpretation is consistent with the historical portrayal of devils and diabolic figures in general.
I immediately caught most of the traps you mention, though I missed "in this place" possibly implying that the inn had to be intact, I caught that he didn't actually promise to be present and the contract does not compel him to be present. Good delivery contracts specify the obligations of the receiver as well.
I'd also be really worried about just exactly what a Devil could do with the dagger of a Sun Deity, and would have presumed that the Sun Deity probably wouldn't be particularly happy with me turning over his personal property to a Devil. I would be wondering if the implied terms of the deal were, "Assist me in blotting out the Sun, and become an enemy of all the Gods of light and good, and all your debts will be paid."
I wouldn't be terribly worried about figuring out the timing, as that's something you can calculate with sufficient astronomy. But the fact that its obvious that the dagger might not be where he says it is, and probably isn't, that you don't know what you are promising to deliver, and that the deal is void if the devil just chooses to show up late and for all I know that this place is on a volcano scheduled to blow sky high before the year is out mean that well, it's entirely a sucker bet even if it wasn't consorting with devils to enter into the agreement.
Incidentally, the Devil missed a trick in his contract. Good delivery contracts specify that the goods will be delivered undamaged. Without such a clause, no warranty for the merchandise is implied and the buyer accepts the merchandise in an 'as is' state without any implied suitability. A broken dagger would appear to fulfill the contract with the same literalness that assumes the inn must be intact for it to be 'this place'. If the Devil specified the dagger was undamaged, it not only would warranty the merchandise, but it offers another layer of making the task impossible - if the reason the dagger is lost that it is broken, good luck mending an artifact.
I'll add one more below, but this is a great analysis.
This, and the examples that precede it, are all great examples of the classic trope of the shrewd dealmaker exploiting loopholes, delivering only as much of the truth as needed, etc. that the folklore associates with Devils. However, if one reads that folklore and fiction, one other matter comes through: the Devil typically wins against the wicked, but loses against the righteous. If his deal is ironclad in his own favour, with nothing the devil overlooks which might allow a PC win - that, too, is not true to the folklore. The challenge also includes building the contract to be one that challenges, but does not guarantee defeat, for the PC's.
Celebrim hits upon one - "We have brought you the dagger. It is the exact , shattered fragments of metal which it was when we met, exactly one year ago. Nothing in our contract specified it would be whole,
just as your own promise did not commit that it would be. We have honoured the terms of the bargain. So, too, must you!"
Ideally, the flaw in his plan will be a failure to contemplate the PC's doing something he would never contemplate - something they do because they are Good and Honourable, that no Devil would even consider a possibility.
The Devil won't show up? The Inn will be gone? What Devil misses his chance to gloat over the failure of the Righteous? Running the Devil as a perfectly rational being is no better than running a PC who always makes the perfect tactical decision, never showing a trace of personality.
Besides, he must want the dagger. Why? Because there is nothing else in the bargain for him. And a Devil will always have something in any bargain for him! If the dagger is shattered and cannot be repaired, he has some other reason for wanting that dagger's remnants.
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