D&D 5E Dealing with a Heavily Armored Paladin?

[CapnZapp]

Or if they can do it as a bonus action a la Mastermind.

Hmm...

Sure but there are not even a single monster with this ability IIRC.

I didn't say there aren't exceptions. I'm saying the rule is "don't Help, make your own attack instead".

People expect Help to work like it gave a bonus to your attack, which would have made it a valuable strategy when you can't otherwise hit except on a 20.

But that's simply not the way it works in 5E. The math of advantage is decidedly different than the math of a bonus.

(Each player - and monster - normally gets a d20 to roll against the enemy. There is little point spending your d20 as a second chance for your buddy, when you can simply use it directly yourself.)

 

[Yunru]

Sure but there are not even a single monster with this ability IIRC.

I didn't say there aren't exceptions. I'm saying the rule is "don't Help, make your own attack instead".

People expect Help to work like it gave a bonus to your attack, which would have made it a valuable strategy when you can't otherwise hit except on a 20.

But that's simply not the way it works in 5E. The math of advantage is decidedly different than the math of a bonus.

(Each player - and monster - normally gets a d20 to roll against the enemy. There is little point spending your d20 as a second chance for your buddy, when you can simply use it directly yourself.)

I was more think of making a Nible Dodge-esque psuedo-Cunning Action that can help and giving it to a more militaristic species.

Help and disengage sounds about right.

 

[CapnZapp]

I was more think of making a Nible Dodge-esque psuedo-Cunning Action that can help and giving it to a more militaristic species.

You can certainly grant specific monsters abilities to make niche strategies into mainstream ones (for them).

I am talking about the general case: if you think your monsters benefit from the Help action, you're probably making a statistical mistake if you play 5E.

 

[Plaguescarred]

I am talking about the general case: if you think your monsters benefit from the Help action, you're probably making a statistical mistake if you play 5E.

Are you saying someone doesn't benefit from having advantage on a roll? I thought it granted +5 on a passive one and a modular benefit depending on the target number?

I think the Help action is advantageous unless you the helper can also make the check or attack though if it's what you say. But the advantage it grant on a roll is a benefit.

 

[CapnZapp]

Are you saying someone doesn't benefit from having advantage on a roll?

No, that is not what I am saying.

 

[Yunru]

He's saying giving up an attack to give someone else (or yourself, I guess) advantage isn't worth it unless they have a better attack, as you're just trading two attack rolls with two potential damage rolls for two attack rolls with one single damage roll maximum.

I agree in principal, but there are edge cases. For example, two attacks at disadvantage can have less chance of hitting than one attack without.

 

[iserith]

Threaten the paladin's goals instead of his hit points. It's just a matter of changing the challenge from "Don't lose your hit points" to "Don't lose [at something else]."

 

[Ancalagon]

Exactly
Most logical approach. The higher your AC the more valuable another +1 becomes. There's even an "AC hole" where any increase is all but wasted unless it manages to lift you out of the hole altogether.

Given it to the AC20 fighter actually saves the party from a lot more damage than increasing one's AC from 14 to 15 would have

Exactly! I did the math, using 30 hp PCs and foes with average damage of 6 and +4 to hit (ignored critical hits). The 14 AC character can take 10 of such attacks. Raising his AC to 15 improved his survivability to 11, not bad. However, the 20 AC character, who could already withstand 25 such attacks, can now withstand 33...

 

[Yunru]

That seems like a fixed 1/3 increase. Of course, since the increase is a ratio, it favours the tankiest (provided said character's not only hit on a 1).

 

[Valdier]

An emphatic no to this. That's just bad math.

Example:

You have eight Grues surrounding the tin can. They can either all attack, or half of them can spend their action on Help instead.

In the first case, the tin can gets 8 d20 rolled against him.

In the second case, the tin can gets... 4 pairs of d20 rolled against him.

There's no difference - in both cases the DM rolls 8 times.

Except there is, since if all eight rolls should actually hit, there is 8 hits in the first case, but only four in the last case.

Talking the help action is not the great idea it looks like. In fact there are only two general cases where it's worthwhile:
a) when your own attack is much weaker than the friend's your helping. Signature case: a familiar helping the party Rogue
b) when you're swarming the foe, and the DM decides you can't all make an effective attack. For example: if there was two dozen grues, perhaps 8 could attack and 8 more could help the first 8.

But in general, thinking that the Help action is actually adding to the DPR of the attacker is a fallacy in 5th edition.

This is because it doesn't actually give a bonus to the attack. Had it granted, say, a +4 to hit bonus instead of the Advantage mechanism (like in previous editions) your thinking would still have been sound.

Sorry I had assumed there were more than 8 creatures. Yes, in an example where there isn't a horde, this is true, but he said there was.

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