Dealing with lame duck characters

[ccs]

TarionzCousin we have tried that. Like the suggestion if he insists on using his fists take the feat that allows this and stops those pesky attacks of opportunity when go unarmed against an opponent with weapons. Or since you are refusing to use magic in combat including casting mage armor on your self lets up at least put you in leather armor. All reasonable things that are in no way min maxing power gaming.

ccs you are assuming a lot with that statement and you are completed off base. We don't have one player who views it as hack n slash we are all role players. This player is not the only method actor at the table we have another one then there is me the story teller the two power gamers one who is the DM don't go looking at char op builds nor do they not role play and they don't always take the most optimized choice not if it conflicts with the story or role playing. What he is doing imo is punishing us for what his other group did they made him feel bad about his style of gaming and then basically booted him out. Which was painful because they were also some of his closet friends. My son is in that group and he told me some of the other players just got fed up and it was not handled nicely. The thing is they were not a good fit that group are power gamers and role playing comes second to them which is a very valid way to play. This player didn't fit in. I thought he would fit in with us but he is not because while we value role playing we also value having a PC that makes sense to the world and the group.

He is angry and a little bitter and he has made a point of trying to get us to switch to a different system like Hero he really dislikes DnD. The thing is none of the DMs want to run Hero system. I am looking at both Savage Worlds and HARP for my next turn in the DM seat or maybe even 7 Seas but right now we are playing in this DM 3.5 homebrew. He was DMing for awhile but we all hated the game because it was a railroad his story was all that mattered and we lacked any free will at all. What we did make zero difference. We sucked it up trying to learn the Hero system and played for six agonizing months hoping it would get better and we all sighed with relief when his work schedule got to busy to run. I know that I and my roommate who is DMing this game tried to talk to him about the rail roading but he just didn't seem to understand what we were saying.

If I'm wrong then it's because you left out a key piece of info in your initial post. Namely that your friend doesn't like D&D.
That changes my answer completely.
Your friend is playing this way because he's trying to sabotage the game. And he will continue to do so no matter how many characters he cycles through. Or how mechanically effective they are.

I based my initial answer on the presumption that everyone there wanted to play D&D.
I did not assume you were power gamers. Though I did assume (rightly) that your friend has something against power gaming. Though since he's pushing for HERO I'll bet it's really just anger against his former group & now yours since you booted him from the Game-Master seat....

Cristian Andreu in this game we are not for the most part good characters we are all mercenaries we belong to a larger group and we only get paid when we succeed at what we are hired to do plus we work for a man who does not tolerate failure well.

We all have characters who have issues mine for example is a disgraced knight set up and betrayed and blamed for the death of the her young noble charge. another is halfling rogue wanted for crimes including murder in another kingdom the murder may have been justified are so we are told and the cleric very chaotic cleric of luck who has huge gambling debts that he is constantly having to come up with money to pay off that and supporting his three mistresses that he is juggling.

So it is hard for us to justify a role playing reason to keep taking this character with us on missions she is costing us money and standing in the guild. And my character who does still have some honorable traits left is furious because her not having any useful spells memorized it seems all she ever memorizes is prestidigitation and unseen servant, contributed to the death of hostages we had been hired to rescue. My PC in character blew up and told her off and then told the main boss to assign us some kind of caster who you know actually is useful.

This is what I mean when I say his role playing choices (his PC is female) is impacting on our role playing we are having to twists ourselves into pretzels to try and find a reason to keep this PC along other than well you know the player is sitting at the table.

Both he and the DM need to find a reason why we want to after the last mission screw up. Because not one of us can see any reasons why we would allow this person to work with us we get no pay off on it.

This fix is easy enough.
1) Mechanically: Your DM needs to set the challenges equal to what a 3?(You, the Halfling, & the cleric) person party can handle, not what a 4 person party should be able to. And there needs to be ways the rest of you can solve the things that a wizard would've been a better choice for. xp & treasure gained can stay the same as whatevers needed to keep you all advancing properly, but the #s/types of things you face need to be adjusted down a notch.

2) Story wise: Well, it's just like the real world. You are employees. You don't get the choice of "allowing" the duck to accompany you.
And maybe there's a REASON why the boss keeps assigning this idiot to your squad. You know, something that will add to the story....
+Wouldn't it be funny if your boss is hacking things up back at HQ all Kylo Ren style in frustration when you fail?

3) Killing the duck, or just letting it die, won't be effective. All it'll get you is a new duck.

 

[Elf Witch]

Valid point. In this case, this is why I always have a session 0 before I run a game. This gives me, as the DM, a chance to engage my players in a dialogue about game expectations, style of play, encourage discussion regarding how their characters know each other or might interact, and give me a chance to review and approve characters before the game gets started. So at least moving forward, session 0 is a strong tool for sorting these problems out before they begin.

As for the player in question, I would definitely speak to him privately and have an honest conversation about how his play style is impacting the other players and remind him that it is a game, and the point of the game is for everyone (not just him) to have fun.

EDIT: Rereading the thread a bit more closely, it really looks like the OP has tried everything. It sucks, but sometimes play styles are just too different/incompatible and you have to make the decision to drop a player. It's hard, because people may have difficulty hearing that it is about the game and nothing personal. But in the end, you are looking at one player who is ruining the fun for all the players. Yes, this guy might be your friend, but if he is a friend, then he should be willing to adjust and play nice with the rest of the group.

EDIT 2: [MENTION=9037]Elf Witch[/MENTION] Another thing I thought of, is your friend ok? Maybe he has something going on in his life that is causing him frustration, anger, resentment, whatever. He might be venting through the game, since it might be a safe place for him to do so. As a result, he might be a bit blind to what his actions are doing to the other players. In a sense, the game is like the safety teddy that your kid can beat up on when he can't get dessert, but he doesn't see his little brother right behind it when he starts whaling on it. I might suggest asking him if he's ok and providing support outside the game. It might release some of that tension and allow him to be more of a team player within the game.

I have been wondering this myself. I have known him for about 10 years. He is a friend of my son and I got to know him through my son. He is a little older than my son around 40. My son mentioned tonight to me that most of the group he used to hang with are avoiding him because he has been so volatile lately about things. He got into a nasty fight over dinner a few weeks ago over a different political opinion. He says everything is okay when asked.

The thing is he has always liked quirky sort of lame duck style characters so it is hard for me to see if this is just the same ole same ole (though he has never played one like this) and if there is something else going on.

In our group I am the peace keeper, arm chair therapist, negotiator, fixer everyone comes to me first with game issues and I have been getting it from all sides including my roommate who is the DM. I like this guy in real life he has been a loyal friend to my son and to me as well. I know he is sensitive and suffers from a mild form of Asperger coupled with a very high IQ. So I don't want to boot him out of the game I don't think anyone really does when we are not playing.

I want everyone to have fun at the table even if if it is something I don't understand. I still don't get what someone would get out of playing a character that can't do anything. I thought if I could understand what he got out of it I could find away to help him have his quirky lame duck and we could have someone who is not driving us completely nuts.

Normally I am really good about coming up with ways to fix these kind of issues. But I am at a loss to even tell DM how to fix this in game.

 

[Elf Witch]

If I'm wrong then it's because you left out a key piece of info in your initial post. Namely that your friend doesn't like D&D.
That changes my answer completely.
Your friend is playing this way because he's trying to sabotage the game. And he will continue to do so no matter how many characters he cycles through. Or how mechanically effective they are.

I based my initial answer on the presumption that everyone there wanted to play D&D.
I did not assume you were power gamers. Though I did assume (rightly) that your friend has something against power gaming. Though since he's pushing for HERO I'll bet it's really just anger against his former group & now yours since you booted him from the Game-Master seat....





This fix is easy enough.
1) Mechanically: Your DM needs to set the challenges equal to what a 3?(You, the Halfling, & the cleric) person party can handle, not what a 4 person party should be able to. And there needs to be ways the rest of you can solve the things that a wizard would've been a better choice for. xp & treasure gained can stay the same as whatevers needed to keep you all advancing properly, but the #s/types of things you face need to be adjusted down a notch.

2) Story wise: Well, it's just like the real world. You are employees. You don't get the choice of "allowing" the duck to accompany you.
And maybe there's a REASON why the boss keeps assigning this idiot to your squad. You know, something that will add to the story....
+Wouldn't it be funny if your boss is hacking things up back at HQ all Kylo Ren style in frustration when you fail?

3) Killing the duck, or just letting it die, won't be effective. All it'll get you is a new duck.

I think his dislike of DnD comes from the old group and 3.0 and onwards. He has shelves filled with first and second edition I think there are things about the newer editions that really bug him. I know he feels the rules get in the way of building different characters and encourages power gaming at the cost of good story telling. I agree a little which is why I have been looking at other systems for a game I wan to run because I don't think DnD even 5E will fit.

We didn't boot him as DM he got really busy at work working a lot of long hours he works as a quality control doing independent testing of new medicines. I know it can be stressful. I know that he was disappointment that I really didn't like the Hero system. I also think there is a taste issue on fantasy he likes more anime style most of us prefer a more gritty LOTRs style fantasy he also loves superheroes and unfortunately the rest of only enjoy it as a one shot not a long term campaign.

I told the DM some of your ideas and she is thinking of making a story adjustment that some how Kiree is related to the owner of the company and we are tasked in dealing with keeping her alive. That gives us a role playing reason. She is also going to just hand wave away the attack of opportunity for unarmed attacks saying that Kiree fighting so often she has earned the feat. And we are going to have my PC make a deal with the owner of the company about being the one to provide NPC services in exchange for keeping the elf alive.

We will see how this works and if it eases some of the tension from the table.

 

[Desh-Rae-Halra]

He will keep doing this behavior as long as you keep enabling him to do it.

In this case, let the dice fall where they may, and after his character bites the dust, the next one doesn't get to auto-join the party. The next character has to interview with the party, and the party (in character!) can tell all their gripes and explain their hesitance "The last guy we had charged into every combat, said he was a wizard but never cast a helpful spell...etc.").

If he passes the interview, have him hired on a probationary period. I would suggest this for ANY new character.

Frankly, it seems like you need the dude's house to play at, or something is keeping you tolerating this despite already talking about it. If you dont make a change, the group is going to implode and there will be hard feelings.

Also, this is the GROUPS problem to solve, not just the GMs. Instead of sending you emails after the game, they need to man up and tell him how they feel. Player Management is a GROUP responsibility.

A passive aggressive solution would be to have him run the game and have everyone make characters like his.
Party:
The pacifist Fighter (owns no weapons or armor)
The Cleric who believes that healing magic is a waste of their god's resource
A Rogue who believes stealing, sneaking/sneak attacking is uncouth, and doesnt believe in having advantage,
A Bard who is on a sabbatical from any kind of music/performance whatsoever
A Druid who will not use magic outside of their hut which lies deep in the forest
A Paladin with a 4 CHA who believes in talking their way out of every situation and has Sworn an Oath against violence

Seriously, maybe the dude should see if he can find a LARP game of Amber

 

[Illithidbix]

He is angry and a little bitter and he has made a point of trying to get us to switch to a different system like Hero he really dislikes DnD. The thing is none of the DMs want to run Hero system. I am looking at both Savage Worlds and HARP for my next turn in the DM seat or maybe even 7 Seas but right now we are playing in this DM 3.5 homebrew. He was DMing for awhile but we all hated the game because it was a railroad his story was all that mattered and we lacked any free will at all. What we did make zero difference. We sucked it up trying to learn the Hero system and played for six agonizing months hoping it would get better and we all sighed with relief when his work schedule got to busy to run. I know that I and my roommate who is DMing this game tried to talk to him about the rail roading but he just didn't seem to understand what we were saying.

Ok this is the important bit to me.
This isn't about a lame duck character at all, it's about a player who wants to game with a group but doesn't like the system and game that's currently being run. Which is a far bigger problem and not one I think is resolved in any way from "within the game".

If he was just playing an underpowered character and having fun without trying deliberately to disrupt the game then I would try and suggest ways of fitting it it.
By the sounds of it he doesn't actually want to be playing the game, he wants the group to be playing another game. And unless the group decides likewise, he is basically stuck.

There can be a certain rebellious stage where a player declares "D&D isn't proper roleplaying! I hate classes and I hate levels and I want point buy, it's SOOOO MUCH BETTER FOR CHARACTERS!" At which point they sometimes run away and get it out of their system, then realize D&D is actually pretty fun when you buy into it.
(I vaguely agree that D&D isn't a good system for trying to run anything other than D&D, likewise I am also sceptical about just how generic many generic and "universal" roleplay systems actually are.)

I think at this point, you kinda just have to ask them they do want to stay in the group and play D&D or if they want to move on if everyone is happy with D&D.
Point out that you're aware he wants the group to be playing something different, but D&D is the game that others want to play.
Awkward if you're the only roleplay group he can play in since he has a choice.

Sadly I can't see a solution beyond him coming to this realization himself.

 

[Sunseeker]

Just stop carrying him. He keeps doing this because your group is "nice" and carries him, you heal him, you protect him, you try to teach him the right way to do things and he is refusing to change. The simplest solution, if you wish to keep playing with him, is to stop enabling him. When he drops to 1 HP, don't heal him. Force him to choose to retreat or defend himself. When he drops to the ground, make him the last priority. When he charges into the fight, don't cover for him, let him do it.

I notice that you mention later that he doesn't like D&D. Not liking D&D combined with this playstyle makes me agree with CCS.

Let me be blunt: this guy is not your friend. This guy is a selfish jerk who knows he has power over your table (because he hosts). He doesn't want to play what you all want to play and he's doing his best to make it as un-fun as possible. Carrying him as made him the center of attention and he likes this because he's getting what he wants: everyone to put up with him while having no fun at all.

You should prioritize relocating. Take away his power. Then evaluate his friendship. You may find the latter of lesser value when you're not worrying about him having a fit and throwing the group out.

I've had my problems with powergamers and other editions, but I don't take them out on every player and every edition of the game. This guy thinks that is OK. It is not.

 

[I'm A Banana]

Your answer is staring you in the face: Have him play a kender!



There's like...2 or 3 geek social fallacies apparently going on at the table. He doesn't want to play D&D? He probably shouldn't be playing D&D. Invite him to go see Star Wars and to the group dinner, but maybe say, "Look, man, if you don't WANT to be here, you don't HAVE to be here, it's cool, there's no hard feelings, and life gets in the way sometimes. If you WANT to be here, we want you here, but we need to be on the same page: you D&D characters are sucking all the fun out of the room. Lets talk about how we can fix that."

The thing about comic relief characters is that (1) they aren't really protagonists, or (2) they are actually effective, despite their ridiculousness, and have some layers to them that aren't just "WACKY!"

For characters that fall into (1), they aren't PC's. They are NPC's. They are the suicidally brave hireling, the kelptomaniac, the absent-minded fuddy-duddy. Great, memorable NPC's. A PITA to party with, but they're kind of meant to be a hassle.

The other possibility is (2). I'm a gnome wild mage who plays the comic relief in one of my games, but not at the expense of the adventure, and there's some reasoning behind his insanity. I play a CHARACTER who is disruptive, but I let that disruption sit in the DM's hands.

 

[Herobizkit]

What I don't understand is, if he wants to be a superhero, why wouldn't he MAKE a superhero?

I get now that it's because he's railing against the game; I also get that this player may be going through some real-life issues and that frustration or w/e is leaking into your game nights. All I can really say is that the Xmas holidays are a very volatile and emotional time, especially for folks with no or (clinically, not the Griswolds) dysfunctional families.

One old D&D adage I usually go by is "We often put aspects of ourselves in our characters". He usually plays oddball characters because maybe he himself is a bit of an oddball. And maybe now that he's ineffectively lashing out in-game with an ineffective character, forcing everyone to pay attention to him and his wants... maybe he's feeling some of that in real life?

Mind you, if ever he wanted to be a "costumed hero with powers", Wizard's pretty much the way to go. Given he's deliberately sabotaged his character's advancement, I dunno how long he'll survive anyhow.

 

[the Jester]

Just stop carrying him. He keeps doing this because your group is "nice" and carries him, you heal him, you protect him, you try to teach him the right way to do things and he is refusing to change. The simplest solution, if you wish to keep playing with him, is to stop enabling him. When he drops to 1 HP, don't heal him. Force him to choose to retreat or defend himself. When he drops to the ground, make him the last priority. When he charges into the fight, don't cover for him, let him do it.

And seriously, the DM is really exacerbating the situation by fudging to keep him alive. Basically, you guys are teaching him that he can be a jerk to the rest of the group and spoil everyone's fun with no consequences- which, if I were to guess, is a lesson he failed to learn from your son's group.

The only thing that might salvage this is open clear communication. "Hey, you're making the game less fun for everyone. We all want to play gritty D&D. I get that it's not your favorite, but if you're going to play with us, would you mind playing along?" But honestly, he sounds like he's going to oh-sure blow you off.

I notice that you mention later that he doesn't like D&D. Not liking D&D combined with this playstyle makes me agree with CCS.

Let me be blunt: this guy is not your friend. This guy is a selfish jerk who knows he has power over your table (because he hosts). He doesn't want to play what you all want to play and he's doing his best to make it as un-fun as possible. Carrying him as made him the center of attention and he likes this because he's getting what he wants: everyone to put up with him while having no fun at all.

I'm afraid that Shidaku is probably right here, with a slight chance of "dude is just childish and can't handle not having his way but is actually a good friend despite that". But really, everything you say about this guy- his volatility, his disregard for others, etc- makes me think that he's going to keep bringing your table down until you either kick him or until you have a "stop it or else" talk that gets through. I don't know if his previous group had that talk with him before booting him, but the fact that he was booted from a group is another warning sign.

JYou should prioritize relocating. Take away his power. Then evaluate his friendship. You may find the latter of lesser value when you're not worrying about him having a fit and throwing the group out.

I've had my problems with powergamers and other editions, but I don't take them out on every player and every edition of the game. This guy thinks that is OK. It is not.

Yep. Bottom line: dude is acting like a jerk, and unless you address it directly and out of game, I don't think it's going to stop. Adjusting the game to accommodate him is very nice and all, but it won't stop him from trying to sabotage it. And that's the thing- he's actively trying to hurt the game. No way would I let him stick around if he didn't shape up.

 

[Talmek]

...... You ever consider just letting his character die? I mean if your in do or die game its gonna come up eventually. After that he can roll up a character more in line with the party and alls well.

As for why people roll lame duck characters. I think its because they have a desire to be something unique. In a novel they would be a beloved character. In a table top game they area liability because at the end of the day this is still a game built upon a series of systems. Some ideas just do not mesh well with said systems.

If you can have a talk about your grievances. If he still is up to the same antics and none of you can bear it, it may be time to find a new place

So I have to go with Kite on this one: If your friend's character is constantly drawing resources from the group because he's unwilling to "help" (interpret the word "help" as you and the rest of the group see fit) then there may very well come a time where a choice has to be made. In one of my groups we had a PC caster class that INSISTED upon running up into melee without even casting spells. This player took offense any time questions were asked or suggestions were made (My character and I'll play him as I want)...so the cleric let the PC take a shot and the PC died because of it.

HOWEVER - this particular instance occurred not because the cleric wanted to prove a point so much as the fighter had just been dropped into single digit HP range and the cleric had 1 healing spell remaining. Long story short - the melee caster learned a valuable lesson regarding playing "true to character" and paying the price for it.

While the PC claimed that it was worth it to die but remain true to form, they also never did that again. We still all play together and there were no hard feelings; it's just the way things panned out.