• The VOIDRUNNER'S CODEX is LIVE! Explore new worlds, fight oppressive empires, fend off fearsome aliens, and wield deadly psionics with this comprehensive boxed set expansion for 5E and A5E!

Dealing with overly cautious players!

Jeff Wilder

First Post
The general solution to this seems pretty B.F. Skinnerish ... reward the behavior you want.

The problem is that you probably have to punish the behavior you don't want, first, because they've already got bad habits. ("Bad" from your perspective, not necessarily objectively.)

The good news is, it's easy to do.

For example, while they're searching a large and complex cavern, start audibly counting the time spent doing so. As time passes, start describing tremors, progressing to gravel falling from the ceiling, progressing to larger chucks and actual shaking of the terrain, and so on. Describe that things seem to be more stable further into the cavern complex.

When the first player (or more than one, if the response is quick) bolts deeper into the complex, he or she narrowly avoids the collapsing ceiling, while everyone else in the room starts rolling saves to avoid damage.

There are two important things to remember:

(1) Rewards don't need to happen every time to be effective. Just ask pigeons.

(2) The "reward" for risky and heroic behavior can be bad for the character, but still extremely fun for the player. To encourage the behavior, you generally don't want to kill or maim characters, but pretty much anything else that gives the player the chance to be the center of attention and do cool or memorable things will work wonders.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

HRSegovia

Explorer
Hah here's a worse one for you, happened to me in a game once, . . .

GM
"You enter a large room that appears to be set up as a dining area containing a large number of shrouded tables and chairs, opposite you on the other side of the room is a doorway while to the east and west lie glass doors leading out to a balcony lit by the occasional flash of lightning arcing across the dark skies beyond."

Me
"I move over towards the windows to have a closer look at the balcony."

GM
"The 15 foot tall statue grabs you and hauls you towarsd the door."

Me
"What statue?"

GM
"The one in the corner of the room."

Me
"You didn't mention a statue."

GM
"It was a dark room and the occasional lightning flash kept you from noticing it."

It's off-topic, but I'd like to comment on "Gotcha DM'ing".

"Gotcha DM'ing" roots from many things:
- Forgetting to describe an important detail in an important event
- Wanting to surprise the players... and it gets out of hand
or
- Intentionally cheating the players because you were dead-set on a scene going a certain way.

FORGETTING TO DESCRIBE
The "Get-Out-Of-Jail-Free" cards: It's very important to remember you have them, but not to hand them out like 10-XP bonuses. If you forgot to describe an important detail concerning a hidden trap or beast that could be detrimental to the scene, then the creature doesn't exist, or the players mulligan. This can be role-played as a "Final Destination" scene without the players realizing it.
"Borzac, you are lifted off the ground by the seat of your pants. - The rest of you guys see a statue you previously overlooked carrying him over to a window..."
"But you didn't describe it in the scene!"
"Let me finish... There is a watery ripple on the wall behind the statue, apparently an illusionary wall - then a loud gust of wind and everything fades and you are all back at the entrance of the room. A ball of seemingly intelligent light flies out of the room... an illusion cast by a friendly spirit. It seems not all encounters here are evil. In unison, you all turn your attention to the space in the wall you saw in your vision."

GETTING OUT OF HAND
We all like to be scared, but for various reasons your gag backfires (feeling cheated, players not in the same frame of mind as you, etc). This is another opportunity for the "Get Out of Jail Free" card, only this time you just have to cut your losses, admit your fault, and step out of the game for a moment to mulligan. Best to lose the momentum of the game for a moment, than an hour or entire evening over argument.

INTENTIONAL SCENE DIRECTING
It's a hard habit to break, but if you can't break it, then you don't need to be GM'ing. Best to lose a game and time invested than to lose friends over a stupid game.

-

As a GM, your prime directive (... yes, I went there ...) is to make sure everyone has FUN. You can get away with MURDER if you can remember a few things:
- If it enhances the story or the fun, let it fly.
- Make it fun for the players
- Give each player a chance to be important
- Reward failure
- Don't be a computer
- You are just as subject to the "us vs the GM" attitude as they are: avoid it

IF IT ENHANCES...
Sometimes players have something they want to do that isn't in your agenda. But you've invested so much time into planning your player's evening. Let it fly. This is prime opportunity for the players to make their own fun and YOU GET THE CREDIT! - On the same subject of letting enhancers fly, some things just seem too fun to leave to chance. If something seems vitally important or fun if it succeeds, why roll? Give it an automatic success.

MAKE IT FUN FOR THE PLAYERS
You can get away with anything if you make it fun. Pardon the reference, but it's quite appropriate: like sex, the foreplay is sometimes more important than the destination.
- It may be more appropriate to be creepy than outright scary.
- The fear is more damning than the event.
- The creature doesn't have to exist to do the damage.
... you get the point.
"The rain outside creates white noise at a time when you wish you had all your senses. Sometimes you think you hear a whisper... but it was just the rain. It's sheets of water on the windows create moving shadows on the wall rendering your peripheral vision almost useless. But she's in there, somewhere, and you have to find her."
"You said the footprints and drag-marks in the dust lead to the room to the right?"
"Yes, and the door is open, but the room is dark. There's a noise from the room as if something is knocked over... glass... that was DEFINITELY not the wind."
"I shine a flashlight in."
"Your flashlight flickers and shuts off."
"Those were fresh batteries! Is there any more noise?"
"Just the rain."
"I stand there for a while with my gun ready..."
"After a while, all you hear is your own breath, heartbeat, and the neverending rain."
"I have matches! I light one."
"You can see only about two feet ahead of you, but you can see."
"It'll have to do. - I step in."
"You get about 6-feet into the room when a gust of wind blows the door shut, and the match... out"
"I run back for the door"
"You lose your bearings in the darkness. A flash of lightning reveals a BEAR 4-inches from your face!"
"I shoot!"
"A shot rings out and the muzzle flash confirms the bear, but you stumble on something and fall backwards dragging the curtain off the wall. A stormy night still reveals more light than a pitch-black room, and the exposed window reveals a preserved bear. It's a hunter's gallery. There's nothing in here but stuffed animals and safari memorabilia."
"*Whew!* I stand-up."
"A loud bang and ear-piercing scratches tear through your ears from behind you! A giant wolf scratches at the window. The 20's glass may not hold him back long!"

MAKE EACH PLAYER IMPORTANT
All generals and no grunts. Everyone want's to feel like they are more than a cog in the machine. Sometimes a rogue is tired of searching every door for mundane traps - a fighter would like to use his brain over his sword once in a while, etc. Try and change the focal point of the game once in a while to suit one player and make them feel important and included rather than in the side-lines.

REWARD FAILURE
Failure is a downer, but chance makes it inevitable in the game. Remember: it's not their fault and lessons (XP) can still be learned from failure. Never let the element of chance be the doom of the players. Nobody should die on the roll of the dice. By the same token, stupidity and blatant ignorance should remove players from GM protection.

DON'T BE A COMPUTER
The rules are a means of interaction to create freedom in an imaginary world rather than the limitations of a video game. Don't make them a trap. Consider them guidelines. Most GM guides advise you to ignore the rules if it betters the game. I take this one step further with "Close enough"s. If a player fails by only a few, sometimes "Close Enough" is okay.

US. VS. THE GM
And finally... avoid this. The game is NOT YOU VS. THEM. You are there to present challenges, not "win". When you have fun, everybody wins.
 
Last edited:



HRSegovia

Explorer
Some great advice there. I believe I'll copy+paste that for later reference. Thanks!

Wow... I'm honored by the compliments. Thank you, All. If anyone needs advice or has a question, feel free to message me. I'm not always online and may not get back to you quickly... but I WILL get back to you.

...and I'm also human. My advice is not always sound. I AM wrong from time to time. Don't be afraid to tell me so. I will treat you with the same respect I'm given.

HAVE FUN!
 
Last edited:


Dukthulhu

First Post
I mistakenly believed that it was a legitimate spell, that he had obtained... legimately. It rarely happens in my games, but it's inevitable that I'd slip up some time. It's not like I reverse-engineer everyone's character before a game, after all.
 

howandwhy99

Adventurer
I'm going to give some alternate advice. Do not punish the players for doing what they wish. Let them do this, if this is what they want. (But there is advice below for helping your issue too)

Keep giving the players plenty of details to search. But make them meaningful. Don't put something in an area or region that is disconnected from it. If you do, remember it needs some connection from somewhere else.

How do you speed up the game? I suggest you do not. Rather, let them do so. I say you suggest to the players the use of SOPs: Standard Operating Procedures. The ex-Marine should love it.

Why go through every area rehashing behavior that can be made routine? If they write down "Room search plan 1" and "Door plan 4" on sheets of paper you can keep a copy and quickly relate all the results from the codified actions.

For example: (your quote)
Beguiler: "Trapfind."
Wizard: "Detect Traps."
Sorcerer: "Detect Magic."

This is "Door Plan #1" You can pre-roll these.

That should speed up play, while still enabling the players to engage the world analytically and by their own say. And if something is out of the ordinary for one of their SOPs? Put it in your description and allow them to stop you, to make adjustments on the fly. I think, if they really are the detail nuts you are saying they are, they will love it.


IOW, let them search everything they come across. Just let them know needless repetition can be scripted over. This isn't an MMO. Grind can always be solved as part of the game for tabletop (rather than handwaved or ground through).
 

Cavall

First Post
Youll have to forgive me for misunderstanding the point of your post, I hope you realize the point of mine was to embrace their caution with the reward of being right upon occassion.

As for the spell list, you should talk to your group, you are right. Read up the spells they are using, sounds like you are getting a little shafted there.

But most of all it wasn't until you gave actual examples that I realized your problem.

If I was a merchant and I had the people I was selling to suddenly cast magic upon me, I would call the guard. How can you have a man who calls himself a "beguiler" be trusted if he is casting spells?

I would also call upon the intergrity of the paladin. He is taking the time to see if you are evil, and yet you have not done anything remotely preceived as evil. In fact, you represent yourself as a good honest person.

What I would REALLY do is raise the prices. Casting spells on me while I sell goods is illegal. Word will quickly spread over the area that they are witches. No one will buy their goods, nor sell to them.

Its not like they can turn around and start actually USING magic to charm people either, for a couple reasons. One, any merchant with the kind of money to supply an adventuring party will have guards, you can't charm them all and this would result in a conflict. And two, more logically, the paladin can't stand by and let such a thing happen when it is really their fault in the first place.

If its got somatic and verbal components, any merchant can easily see it as a spell. You dont need detect magic, you just have to realize its not someone doing something to trade.

Ill get back to this more, in a bit.
 

Dukthulhu

First Post
You may be assuming a bit about the morality of their party. They don't have a Paladin. Heck, they don't even have anyone who's Good, just Neutrals and Evils. As well, magic is rare, but not rare enough that the party would be accused of witchcraft for using it in public. Fined, maybe, but not considered unholy.

Otherwise, good points there. I may have to stock some of my merchants with a few more escorts from now on.
 

Voidrunner's Codex

Remove ads

Top