Dealing with powergamers

[molonel]

First, I just have to say:

I love 3rd Edition D&D. I love options. I love feats. I love skills, and skill tricks, and new tweaks and rules mechanics. I love exploring books, and reading new supplements. I'm a complete WotC whore. I have two shelves full of books literally sagging under the weight. I've played every level, XP by painful XP, up through 35th level. I've played epic rules. I regularly read forums like Enworld and Monte Cook, and enjoy reading the optimization forums on Wizards. I have absolutely nothing against powergaming or character optimization. In fact, I encourage it.

However, having said that, I have two rules in my games:

1. I play core rules for the players, only. PHB, DMG, MM. Period. Anything besides that is optional. My games invariably allow other rules in, but I do not allow ANY book carte blanche into my game. Players run new material by me first.

2. If something makes the game more work for me than it is fun, I'm done. I'm an adult. I love gaming, but I am not going to devote 20 - 30 hours a week designing combat encounters for superoptimized ubercombat machines.

The sweet spot for D&D is between 8th and 12th level. From there, though it varies according to the gaming group and the DM, the game eventually - in my opinion - flies apart. You start spending too much time, as the DM, developing combat encounters. I will never run an epic D&D game as anything other than episodically. In other words, a game of mine may go from 1st through 21st, and then play specific points of the story arc at 30th, 40th and 50th level. I love epic storylines, and challenging the gods themselves is AWESOME. I want players to have that kickass feeling of rubbing shoulders with gods, angels, devils and demons.

But the thought of running an epic D&D game week-to-week makes me want to stab out my eyes with a #2 pencil.

Decide what your limits are. Decide how much time you are willing to devote to the game. And stick to it. Draw lines, and tell your players that you want them to have a fun time, but the game has to be fun for everyone, and everyone includes you.

My advice? Reboot the game. Give them a few more sessions, but wrap up the story and retire present characters. Unless, of course, you can retire elements of the game without unraveling everything, but in my opinion, that rarely works.

In any case, you need to bone up and realize you can't be free and easy with what books, prestige classes and feats you allow in your game. You absolutely MUST set limits as a DM. It is not only your right, but your responsibility.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

I think this is the most productive advice that's been given yet.

Any advice that boils down to "suck it up, DM, even if you're not enjoying the game" can hardly be called productive.

 

[Darklone]

You are being attacked by 20 ninjas. You can't see them..But there are there...

---Rusty

Looks like I failed a Spot check.

 

[Li Shenron]

He seems to have fun as long as I have lots of encounters. He's the type that would enjoy a campaign that just threw random encounters at him every session so he can fight stuff. This next adventure I'm running is very roleplay heavy and light on combat. I don't know what to expect from him. I hope he'll get involved in the overall plot, but I doubt it.

His wife enjoys everything....except for when I made an issue about her arrows
Both of them are always motivated to get together for the next session. From my experience that's rare, so it's great they are and I'm glad to have players that make an effort to be available for another session!

I know one of the other players is getting annoyed by his style of play. They are the exact opposite players, so it's not surprising they butt heads. This player complains that the powergamer doesn't participate with character interaction & always tries to tell players what to do in combat & what spells/feats/ect to pick during level progression. The powergamer complains because that player is terrible in combat and doesn't even use all of the options provided for the PC's class. But it's nothing serious enough that they'd argue with each other. They'll each just get that look of :\ on their face when one of them does something that annoys the other.

The thing is, the roleplayer player fits my style of DM'ing more than the powergamers style. I can deal with the lack of strategic combat but great roleplaying better than I can deal with the lack of roleplaying but great strategic combat.

It doesn't sound like a terrible situation.

Keep some balance between roleplay encounters and combat encounters, so that the powergamer will have his fun in combat and the opposite player will have his fun in non-combat situations. Don't give too much to one of them if that means to sacrifice the other's fun.

Then, if you feel like you want to run a MUCH more RP-oriented campaign, I think you should have probably mentioned this before starting... this way it would have been clear to anyone what kind of game it was going to be, and a player going against the campaign style would have been advised that he probably wouldn't have much fun.

Remember however that you are doing a bigger effort than anyone, so you are definitely entitled to YOU OWN fun.

 

[Thurbane]

Any advice that boils down to "suck it up, DM, even if you're not enjoying the game" can hardly be called productive.

Seconded.

 

[VirgilCaine]

So instead of thinking about conserving arrows & switching to her sword on occasion, they are trying to figure a way for her to always be fully stocked on arrows. Even though I don't have magic item shops, she determined to buy a bag of holding. They said if that's not an option, they want her to take crafting skills to make her own arrows when they rest at camp at night. This is just one example of many things I deal with like this...beefing up a characters strongpoints & then problem solving a way to fix the downside effects.

I'm confused here. A magic quiver that makes infinite arrows would not be too expensive if the characters have PrC levels. Or masterwork arrows. PC always has arrows. Sure, they're not magic arrows, but you can't have everything you want. That's something to upgrade to in the future.

I don't see why "No magic item shops=no buying magic items"--a bag of holding is going to be an item that is very in demand from adventurers and merchants alike, but the problem will be outbidding the others in competition for the item, not finding the item for sale.

I also don't understand why dealing with a character's problems is such a problem for you. That's like complaining that the wizard keeps wanting components for his spells. He's finding a way to deal with the shortcoming in game in a logical manner.

 

[William drake]

Is it bad form for a DM that doesn't powergame to nit-pick the small stuff in the game just to attempt to have some kind of impact against players that powergame?

I hate to say it, but a powergamer in the group is really starting to bother me. I've talked to him a few times letting him know that I don't powergame and I don't have time to read spells/feats/skills/PrC's in every book to optimize my NPC's the way he does for his PC. Most of my time is spent creating ideas for the campaign and quickly creating dozens of NPC's & monsters for them to encounter. I try to make the best NPC's I can with the knowledge & time that I have. But my character builds are nothing compared to what a powergamer can do.

I've let him know in the past that the more he powergames his PC to make him stronger than an above average player could do, it's going to cause me to have to throw higher CR encounters at the group which is unfair to the less strategic/powergamey players. And frankly, building an encounter just to match the power of a single PC is not what I enjoy doing as a DM anyway.

Yet, he still insists on powergaming (probably unintentional because that's what he enjoys out of D&D), and since his wife is fairly new to D&D, he even powergames her PC for her each time they level up.

I don't mind optimized characters, I encourage players to build well built PC's. But it's bothering me now because this guy will build one aspect of his PC really powerful which causes the PC to be weaker in other areas...but then he tries to find ways to "band-aid" the weaker areas. Since he does the same thing with his wifes PC, she now is trying to find ways to "band-aid" her PC's downfalls (with his help).

My latest example would be her Archer PC. He helped her build an archer that uses her bow & only her bow to fight in ranged & melee attacks without suffering any side-effects (like AoO's ect). I found out she wasn't keeping up with her arrow inventory, so I reminded her to do so. Since she never uses a melee weapon, & she shoots 2-3 arrows a round, she's realizing now that she can run out of arrows fast, even with owning a magic quiver that stores 60 arrows & finding her used arrows at the 50% chance. So instead of thinking about conserving arrows & switching to her sword on occasion, they are trying to figure a way for her to always be fully stocked on arrows. Even though I don't have magic item shops, she determined to buy a bag of holding. They said if that's not an option, they want her to take crafting skills to make her own arrows when they rest at camp at night. This is just one example of many things I deal with like this...beefing up a characters strongpoints & then problem solving a way to fix the downside effects.

Something happend last session that is bothering me the more I think about it. The powergamer rarely ever gets into the roleplaying scenarios. I encourage roleplaying but I understand it's not everyones cup of tea, I'm ok with that. His nose is usually in his D&D books while people are roleplaying with NPC's. But last game, while they were trying to figure out what to do with an evil artifact, he speaks up and starts suggesting that they go find his gods realm (Planescape game) and ask his god what to do. When I tell him gods don't necessarily care about mortal affairs, even if it's about an evil artifact, he suggests that they at least go find a Solar that works for his god and ask it for help. I thought, "Wow, he's really getting into this plotline now, and he even thought about meeting his god & even mentioned a SOLAR of all things!" Unfortunately, the players wouldn't know it but I figured their PC's would know (and I didn't want them to get upset for wasting their time trying), so I tell them that going to a gods realm isn't as easy as just finding where he lives and knocking on the front door. So even finding a Solar proxy of his god could be just as difficult. But man, I was excited that he even thought of it and was getting involved in the campaign.

My excitement came crashing down about 20 minutes later when they decided to travel to Sigil to find someone there that might help them with the artifact. When they began their task in Sigil, the powergamer casually mentions, "Dang, visiting my god or speaking to a Solar is a requirement for me to get this PrC when I hit 11th level". I looked at him, & to my surprise, another player (he's also a powergamer, but he keeps it under control for my sake and he participates in the roleplaying) also looked at him and said basically the same thing I did, "What! that's the reason you suggested we find your god!?! You didn't care about the artifact, you had an agenda which was to just gain more cool stuff for your character!"

That bummed me out. I already feel bad for cracking down on little things like keeping up with arrows just to have some control over powergaming, and I've thought about implementing other stupid criteria in an attempt to have control & curb a little of the powergaming going on. But this sucks. I hate that I feel like I need to do things just because players go out of their way to thwart my attempt to challenge them. It's the whole "difference of playstyles" affecting me here and I don't want to make an issue about things, it always causes problems in the group. But I know my skills as a DM and the more this goes on, the more I'll lose control of the campaign and not be on the same power level as the players. I'm worried that eventually they'll tweak their PC's so much that they'll plow through any encounter because I'm not knowledgable enough with NPC optimization to come up with ways to challenge them.

Any advice other than simply "talking" with him? I've done that and I know I may still need to talk again. I just don't want anyone to feel like I'm coming down on them...I hate drama and I don't want a conversation about a hobby to ruin the groups spirit. Am I at fault here? Do I have the right to feel annoyed by this & wanting to crack down on a thing as piddly as arrow inventory? Or am I being unfair & too hard on the players?

Well, one thing for sure: if he's bothering you this much, he should be told to change, or leave...and thats that. You can't worry about pleasing everyone, that never works and in the end, just makes things worse.

Now, with the making herown arrows things, do you know how long it takes to make an arrow, just one. Its almost an hour an arrow, and then you've got to test it..and that's if your almost a master. Its not just something easy to do, it requires alot of knoweldge of wood, feathers and so on. If you think she's got highenough skills, do it...but start costing her sleep, I mean, if shes up to make 12 arrows in a night...she's not sleeping. If she's not sleeping, then shes down the next day.

Ok, and with the powergamer who doesn't roleplay. Get him arrested, or something, where he must talk...make him the main point of a single nights game. Then, if he doesn't get involved, the other players will see it and force him to do something...if that doesn't work out, maybe they'll ask you to get him to leave. Sorry, not all groups are for all players.

and about his god....I love it when players wish to speak to their gods, or a cleric in service of theri good for a greedy puprose...if the gods not evil, SMITE THEM...rebuke their faith. Let their god get pissed..HES A GOD, he knows what the player is there. Strip him of his religion, shun him...make it so that when he's in a town, and needs healing, he can't even go to his temple or whatever, and then maybe some other temples have heard of him, and how he has no real faith.

Religion is an odd thing...use it.

About weapons and armor, or mixing it up so the player has no weaknesses...thats not possible. You just have to pay attention. Start keeping your own numbers on how beaten his sword, shield, armor is..and when you think its toughness, or HP is gone..tell him its broke, then make it so its hard to find replacements...let him earn it back, or pay for it out of pocket.

There are plenty of things you can do to point out to the player that he needs to change. You've been nice it seems, but now your starting to wondering if its going to ruin your group...you as the DM can't let that happen.

about the rules..ones you dont know two things
1 dont allow them
2 allow them, but if your not sure of the particulars of it, rule that you can use LOGIC instead, house rules..and if the player don't like it say "well, you're using something I dont know, I was nice enough to allow it, so you can either get rid of it..or let me rule how I see fit."


Simply put, if a player is not willing to bend, then he's got to go.

 

[atomn]

Any advice that boils down to "suck it up, DM, even if you're not enjoying the game" can hardly be called productive.

No, but I think the advice is very productive because it sought to rectify balance issues between the non-powergaming players with the powergamer, it used the strengths of the powergamer to help him become a better roleplayer and it didn't sink the GM to blatantly attacking the character with 300 ninjas or permanently draining levels until he learns his lesson (which I think would only cause hard feelings and create additional problems).

 

[Jürgen Hubert]

Concerning the arrows, the magical quiver is a good idea, but I certainly wouldn't allow the PC to fashion arrows at camp. That's something that's done in a workroom of some kind with tools and such. Certainly smithing arrowheads is not something that can be done by the fire while others are resting. I don't understand how that would work, unless she's carrying around shafts and arrowheads. Why not just buy the finished arrows instead? She can make all the arrows she wants in town.

Actually, it is possible to create arrows in a camp - tribes throughout history have managed to do that, and in fact I find it perfectly reasonable for a outdoorsy-type characters to attempt to do such a thing.

But first, let's look at how the craft rules work. Let's assume she tries to create a typical pack of 20 arrows (worth 1 gp).

1. She needs to pay one-third of the price of raw materials, or 0.33 gp. This probably represents the arrowheads, since it is hard to create such pieces of metal far from civilization. But they are relatively lightweight (perhaps even with negligible weight) and thus easier to carry than entire arrows.

If she wants to avoid that, she can try to carve bones into arrowheads. But finding and carving bones takes even more time and the resulting arrows will be inferior (since bone is more brittle than iron) - applying -1 to damage should be appropriate. But if she wants to do that, fine.

2. She needs to craft the item. It's probably a "typical item" with a Craft DC of 10. Let's assume that she has enough points in the Craft skill to get a result of 15 with a Take 10.

(Can the character see at night? If no, she will have serious penalties on the Craft roll. Unless she uses a fire or magical light during the period, which can attract monsters...)

For an eight hours of work (the equivalent of a day of work), she will thus be able to create arrows with a total worth of 10x15=150 cp, or 1.5 gp. That's 30 arrows. If she works about two hours every evening, she will be able to create 7.5 arrows during that time. For one hour, she will get about three.

Given that she has to pay some of the cost of the arrows because of the arrowhead, I don't find that too unreasonable. Furthermore, she won't be able to do other things during that time, such as sleep or standing guard (attempts to notice any approaching monsters should get at least +5 to the difficulty while she is otherwise occupied). But other than that, I'd permit it. And it also makes for a good activity in the mornings when the clerics and wizards are busy with regaining their spells. And if the party frequently gets into combat, the rate at which she produces arrows won't be fast enough. But hey, that's a good reason to increase her Craft skill.


Generally, if some of your players come up with suggestions like that is to delay the answer until the next session, which gives you time to think about it - you can also ask the folks here on ENWorld that way. If you need to make a decision now, then do so - but say that this is only valid for this session, and that need to think about it some more until you make a final decision.


And if they come to you with any ideas from other sourcebooks, tell them the following:

"Give me a photocopy of the relevant text well ahead of time so I can think about it. If you have any long-term plans about prestige classes, feats, and so forth about a later day, give me a photocopy of the relevant texts well in advance so that I can plan for it and adjust my campaign. Talking to me about this when entering the relevant level is not the best time - if neccessary, I will delay your level advancement until I can reach a decision. And I retain the right to say "no", so it is in your own best interest to talk about it in advance so that you won't end up with prerequisites you didn't need after all..."

 

[billd91]

Any advice that boils down to "suck it up, DM, even if you're not enjoying the game" can hardly be called productive.

The DM is one of the players of the game so he shouldn't be completely ignored in the consideration, no. But if everyone IS having a fine old time even with the powergamer problem, then maybe it would be the DM's expectations that should be adjusted since he would be the odd man out. So, the advice isn't completely non-productive.