Dealing with powergamers

[green slime]

IMO, a large part of the problems of PG (power Gaming) arise because of the proliferation of whacky PrC's which do things that some designer thought would be cool. There are a number of things which I do not allow no matter how whiny the player is.

1) Casting spells with an effective spell level higher than ((CL/2) -1).
2) Sneak Attack damage beyond 30 feet.
3) Deathless Frenzy
4) Allowing things to stack, that really shouldn't.

I always compare a PrC with a base class or two, and ask "What is this PrC giving up, in order to gain these benefits?" If I don't feel it is enough, its no go. I don't bother trying to rewrite the PrC abilities for power gamers anymore these days, because power gamers aren't interested in the flavour anyway.

Feats are easier to control. PrC's can be very tricky, and it can require sleuthy questioning of the not-so-innocent power gamer to wheddle out their nefaroius plans.

 

[Mallus]

Running a game for people with different expectations isn't that hard if everyone's willing to talk honestly and then compromise. However, it's incumbent on the DM, since he's holding most, if not all, of the cards to create an environment where compromise is possible.

That means indulging playstyles different from your preferred one. It also means picking your battles; for instance, giving a player grief because they want to make arrows seems way too adversarial, even petty. It's perfectly reasonable request. That's what skilled outdoorsy-type characters are supposed to do.

Hell, wanting an effectively unlimited supply of arrows is a perfectly reasonable request in D&D past a certain point. (BTW, what level are the PC's?) D&D rapidly becomes a superhero game in quasi-Medieval drag, in which magical resources are the only ones worth tracking.

I'm not a fan of limiting the players to the PHB, either. Sometimes it takes the designers a while to 'get it right'. There is significant amount of material in the later books, like the PHBII, that simply makes D&D a better game. And not just for powergamers. Then there's the whole issue of the PHB itself not being balanced...

Also, be honest with a powergaming player. Tell them you're having trouble creating appropriate challenges for the group. In other words, make them realize they're partners in maintaining game balance.

From there you have options. If you're of a mind to, get the powergamers help in design opponents. Or agree on a series of nerf's. While no-one likes nerfing, most people don't like to admit they're so selfish that they'd knowingly ruin other people fun.

 

[green slime]

Also, be honest with a powergaming player. Tell them you're having trouble creating appropriate challenges for the group. In other words, make them realize they're partners in maintaining game balance.

I've tried this. In my particular case, it didn't help. Just doesn't sink in. So that campaign is a dead duck.

 

[Oryan77]

I don't see why "No magic item shops=no buying magic items"--a bag of holding is going to be an item that is very in demand from adventurers and merchants alike, but the problem will be outbidding the others in competition for the item, not finding the item for sale.

I do allow PC's to buy magic items if they can find someone that happens to have something around or they request a mage to create one for them. It'll just cost them a lot. But I don't like it when players "expect" a certain item just because gamers on the internet always seem to have that item for their PC and claim, "it's a standard item". There's no such thing as "standard magic items" in my world because I try to make magic items special rather than "standard". Besides, the party already has 2 bags of holding which was pushing it. The Rogue got one as his starting equipment & I went ahead and threw another one in as treasure because he wasn't telling anyone he had it and I figured they'd like something they can all store loot in. But they gave it to the Rogue, so now he has two I can't have these things pouring off the printing press.

I also don't understand why dealing with a character's problems is such a problem for you. He's finding a way to deal with the shortcoming in game in a logical manner.

I guess it's because I find it a burden to everyone that doesn't powergame.

My example is this: he spends hours throughout a week tweaking up a character to figure out the highest possible attack bonus he can come up with using anything he can find in sourcebooks. So rather than having a reasonably good attack bonus like a modest player would have, he figures out how to make it incredible. This kind of stuff usually has a downfall to keep things balanced....maybe he has to sacrifice his AC or something. So then, he now figures out a way to boost his AC until it's not taking a hit. This goes on all week until he finally believes he's built an all around invincible PC. So I for instance, think to myself, "Now how am I going to figure out how to get PC's to not only survive his attacks, but get a standard NPC of the appropriate CR to even hit him? I'll have to go out of my way to figure it out and frankly, I don't have time to do that. I'm trying to create plotlines, normal NPC's, treasure ideas, PC side quests, & boning up on rules".

Generally, if some of your players come up with suggestions like that is to delay the answer until the next session, which gives you time to think about it

That's exactly what I did. In fact, I'm going to take your calculations and run with it. Three arrows an hour is what she can craft if she's in a place where she can find the wood. Thanks!

 

[Mallus]

I've tried this. In my particular case, it didn't help. Just doesn't sink in. So that campaign is a dead duck.

That's too bad.

If a player is unwilling to help in making the game work, I say get rid of them.

 

[Nail]

ISo I for instance, think to myself, "Now how am I going to figure out how to get PC's to not only survive his attacks, but get a standard NPC of the appropriate CR to even hit him? ...".

Oryan77: Post his PC sheet on the boards here. Ask for challenges to give this guy. You'll get tons! Title the post: "Help me challenge this powergamer!"


This will save you oodles of work. Trust me.

 

[Numion]

Oryan77: Post his PC sheet on the boards here. Ask for challenges to give this guy. You'll get tons! Title the post: "Help me challenge this powergamer!"

Additionally, we're quite likely to find errors in the characters.

Quite often when a player has created an 'invincible' character, the rules have been bent.

 

[Ozmar]

My example is this: he spends hours throughout a week tweaking up a character to figure out the highest possible attack bonus he can come up with using anything he can find in sourcebooks. So rather than having a reasonably good attack bonus like a modest player would have, he figures out how to make it incredible. This kind of stuff usually has a downfall to keep things balanced....maybe he has to sacrifice his AC or something. So then, he now figures out a way to boost his AC until it's not taking a hit. This goes on all week until he finally believes he's built an all around invincible PC. So I for instance, think to myself, "Now how am I going to figure out how to get PC's to not only survive his attacks, but get a standard NPC of the appropriate CR to even hit him? I'll have to go out of my way to figure it out and frankly, I don't have time to do that. I'm trying to create plotlines, normal NPC's, treasure ideas, PC side quests, & boning up on rules".

That does sound a bit suspicious. Can you give us some concrete examples? Like, what feats, magic items, tricks and tweaks has he put in to give himself an awesome bonus? There's only so much you can do, and it should be pretty easy to nerf him if he's really abusing the system.

Ozmar the Helpful

 

[Bad Paper]

I, too, am chomping at the bit to see this guy's sheet.

 

[hexgrid]

Any advice that boils down to "suck it up, DM, even if you're not enjoying the game" can hardly be called productive.

How about: "Learn to lighten up, DM, and you'll end up enjoying the game a whole lot more."

That's the most important thing I've ever learned about DMing, at least, and it completely solved situations like the one described in this thread. It's much more fun to work with the players than it is to work against them.