Dealing with powergamers

[iwatt]

That does sound a bit suspicious. Can you give us some concrete examples? Like, what feats, magic items, tricks and tweaks has he put in to give himself an awesome bonus? There's only so much you can do, and it should be pretty easy to nerf him if he's really abusing the system.

Ozmar the Helpful

The difference in powers can be produced even without breaking the rules. All it requires is some players not focused on singlemindedly maximizing combat power versus one player optimizing whole hog.

Some players will even choose feats based on what their characters have experienced, or choose flavorful PrCs instead of the optimum choices. Others will always evaluate each choice and look for the ebst possible option. Neither position is superior, but it doeas cause the GM problems when creating encounters.

Now the OP has pointed out something: The problem player* tends to tell people what to do in combat, as well as suggest to the other PCs what feats/skills/spells to take when levelling. Unless the advice is solicited, this attitude can cause serious problems in groups.

From what I gather from the OP, the problem player seems obsessed with maximizing the potential of the whole party. He probably enjoys the min-maxing character design (which I find a lot of fun myself).

 

[brehobit]

My solution to a similar problem (I have 1 powergamer, 2 "optimizers" and 1 non-optimizer) was to be careful with magic items. Specifically my non-optimizer now has a +1 holy sword. At 6th level that helps a LOT. In a non-magic shop world, this should be able to give you enough to balance out a powergamer unless your other players are _really_ bad at optimization or he's really abusing things/cheating.

As others, I'd like to see his sheet, but I'd actually like to see the whole party's sheets.

Mark

 

[Storyteller01]

4. I'm excempt from these rules. My NPC's can use anything from any book I choose. That will help me make my NPC's different from the PC's since I need the variety to keep encounters different.

I watch this one. If your player always uses the rules to keep you in check, this will cause no end of issues.


I've warned my players ahead of time that 'things aren't always what you expect. If you want, I'll explain the rationale after the encounter'. It's worked well so far. No complaints after the explaination.

 

[Oryan77]

Ask for challenges to give this guy. You'll get tons! Title the post: "Help me challenge this powergamer!"

Oh believe me, you guys are awesome & Enworld is the first place I run to for help. I've already done this long ago

My point is, I don't want to keep doing this. It's a waste of my time just to challenge a single well efficiently built PC. I can put up with a PC that is hard to hit due to a high AC...even when I have to roll a Natural 20 to hit him 80% of the time. I can deal with a PC that blasts NPC's with hard hitting attacks. But it's when I have to deal with a cleric PC that managed to work out a way where he gets an incredible AC, an insane attack bonus when buffing, great saves due to buffs, created a spell selection that allows him to attack from a distance (he avoids his slow movement rate now), gets multiple attacks from a distance with high bonuses, outputs huge damage, & just to make sure he's hitting any enemy; the attacks may be ranged touch attacks. Not only this, but just in case he needs to rescue a PC, thanks to swift spells, he can instantly do so without losing a full attack action. So it threatens my attempts to even wack on other PC's. I may be exagerating a little, but that's basically what he tries to do.

When I've thought, "He's raising the challenge bar, so I'll make higher ECL's", my NPC's do too much output vs the other players. So I may nick his PC now, but I'll slaughter another PC in a single hit.

That does sound a bit suspicious. Can you give us some concrete examples? Like, what feats, magic items, tricks and tweaks has he put in to give himself an awesome bonus?

Believe me, I've gone over his build & spell combinations with a fine toothed comb. I've become pretty good with rules, and when I wasn't sure, I even posted here in the rules forum.

One thing I appreciate about him is he is very thorough and doesn't try to abuse the rules. Most players I've played with that "try" to powergame usually had no idea what they were doing and their powerful builds broke all kinds of rules. I've caught one simple mistake he made once, but usually if I think this guy broke a rule, he proves me wrong. So I'm confident that he knows what he's doing.

 

[Mallus]

"Learn to lighten up, DM, and you'll end up enjoying the game a whole lot more."

Exactly, but...

It's much more fun to work with the players than it is to work against them.

... it has to work both ways. Players also need to work with the DM. Not everyone can optimize characters, the same way not everyone can extemporize rousing speeches and clever dialogue.

Asking a DM to provide a play experience that they aren't capable of is futile. Just like asking a player to play in a style they don't enjoy or aren't comfortable with.

 

[Oryan77]

How about: "Learn to lighten up, DM, and you'll end up enjoying the game a whole lot more."

That's the most important thing I've ever learned about DMing, at least, and it completely solved situations like the one described in this thread. It's much more fun to work with the players than it is to work against them.

I agree. That's why I posted this thread because I wondered if I just need to lighten up. I think I do.

I always try to work with players (that's why I allowed so many options). And when they want something, I work with them to get it if it's reasonable.

But when the player started complaining about a magic quiver that holds 60 arrows wasn't good enough, rather than thinking "wow, I have a magic quiver that holds 60 arrows!", it struck a chord. Then I'm hearing that she wants to buy a bag of holding even after they know I don't have magic shops. So I feared that I'm losing control because I was too lenient and allowed them to make fantastic builds that used up a ton of arrows. So I attempted to put my foot down in a way where I'm saying, "If you want to be incredible in one area, it should make something else difficult to balance things out. You can't have both of best worlds."

 

[Ozmar]

I agree. That's why I posted this thread because I wondered if I just need to lighten up. I think I do.

That's kinda what I'm wondering. I mean, if you're bent out of shape because your player wants to craft arrows, then I start to wonder: are they so horrible that they drove you to paranoid stinginess, or are you being just a teeny bit draconian?

I always try to work with players (that's why I allowed so many options). And when they want something, I work with them to get it if it's reasonable.

But when the player started complaining about a magic quiver that holds 60 arrows wasn't good enough, rather than thinking "wow, I have a magic quiver that holds 60 arrows!", it struck a chord. Then I'm hearing that she wants to buy a bag of holding even after they know I don't have magic shops. So I feared that I'm losing control because I was too lenient and allowed them to make fantastic builds that used up a ton of arrows. So I attempted to put my foot down in a way where I'm saying, "If you want to be incredible in one area, it should make something else difficult to balance things out. You can't have both of best worlds."

I am very curious about what constitutes "incredible" and "difficult" in your game world. Carrying 120 arrows and using a bow as a primary weapon all the time seems to be "incredible"? Maybe you do need to lighten up?

Ozmar the Curious

 

[Oryan77]

Others will always evaluate each choice and look for the best possible option. Neither position is superior, but it doeas cause the GM problems when creating encounters.

This is my beef exactly!

From what I gather from the OP, the problem player seems obsessed with maximizing the potential of the whole party. He probably enjoys the min-maxing character design (which I find a lot of fun myself).

Yep, again, you are right on. Of course he focuses mainly on his PC, but he is completely gung-ho about working out ways to min-max the entire group. His spell selection isn't solely for his benefit, he uses buffs that benefits the other players a little too. So he min-maxes his PC and his wifes PC, gives suggestions for the other players, & surprises me occasionally with party buffs. It just makes my job to challenge them so much harder.

I just wish I could grab my books, write up an NPC with some nice abilities, and then use it in combat the best I can without having to think about, "Ok, if I want to give Bob's PC a run for his money, I need to focus on touch attacks & Reflex saves, because no NPC's at this level can hit his AC & survive his attacks". I don't have to worry about challenging any other players. They are moderately hard to hit, and moderately hard to survive against. Just playing a normal combat will be challenging enough. And targeting a PC's weak spots can only be done so much without people thinking you're targeting a PC's weak spots

 

[Numion]

But when the player started complaining about a magic quiver that holds 60 arrows wasn't good enough, rather than thinking "wow, I have a magic quiver that holds 60 arrows!", it struck a chord.

Could you clarify a bit? Do you mean that she should get by 1 encounter, or 1 day or 1 adventure with 60 arrows? What's keeping her from restocking the quiver from her backpack between encounters?

 

[Corinth]

I have no sympathy for you Oryan. Learn to play. Your powergamer is better at this than you are, and the only way to deal with him is to hone your skills to his level or better.