Dear post#3132721, don't blame me. I'm just the interpreter.

[RangerWickett]

This thread was originally titled "Dragon saves are too high." This thread lay dormant, it's wisdom lost for many a week, but now it is reborn!

[sblock]Special note. I wrote this post, and in the process of doing so realized I was wrong. I'm posting it anyway as a lesson to myself and others.

Hear me out.

Fighters make attack rolls. Their attack bonus improves by about 2 each level (from maybe +5 at 1st level to +35 or higher at 20th. Even if a dragon's AC is really high, the fighter can hit it regularly if the CR is close to the party level. A 16th level fighter might easily have +25 attack bonus (+16 base, +4 magic, +5 strength), which actually hits most of the time against a CR 16 mature adult green dragon (AC 30).

Rogues have a harder time of it because dragons are risky to flank, impossible to sneak up on, and their attack bonuses seldom stack up to fighters, but even then, a 16th level rogue probably has a +20 attack bonus or better (+12 base, +3 magic, +5 finessed Dex). Clerics can likewise wail on dragons.

Where the problem crops up, in my opinion, is spells. Now sure, damage spells are always reliable, because even on a successful reflex save, a dragon will take some damage from a fireball, and magic missile is always a solid standby.

But what about the poor non-evoker, who wants to frighten, fatigue, confuse, blind, or entangle a dragon. What's the save DC for a 16th level wizard's best spell? Maybe 25 (10 + spell level 8 + 5 charisma + 2 spell focus). A mature adult green has +18 Fort, +13 Reflex, and +16 Will, plus SR 22.

Now sure, dragons are supposed to be majestic, invincible creatures that cause DMs to dirty their shorts in glee. But you ought to be able to use tactics other than just dealing damage. Let's have some variety in combat. Let's win through superior tactics, not superior stats.[/sblock]

 

[Fieari]

If dragons had lower will saves, you'd see more domesticated (dominated) dragons, which doesn't quite fit the setting.

There's plenty of tactics to use on a dragon... but those tactics tend not to be "full frontal assault with spells". Charm the dragon's minions, summon monster / nature's ally for flanking partners, walls of stone, fire, or force for battlefield control...

Dragons are tough, but not UNBEATABLE. Some tactics don't work, others do. Adapt. Adjust. Deal with the fact that dragons can shrug off a lot of things.

 

[Ciaran]

My illusionist is prepping for a battle with a dragon, and I've been going over my own spells with the same thoughts in mind. Aside from SR, though, I don't see dragon saves as too much of a problem; it's simply necessary to concentrate on its weak points. In this case, it's Ray spells (dragons have a low touch AC) and spells with Reflex saves.

 

[Cadfan]

I disagree entirely with your analysis.

First, your sorceror's spell DC is too low. Your sorceror apparently has only a 20 charisma at level 16. Assuming he started with a 16 and put 4 points in from levelling up, that's not enhanced with items. If your sorceror cannot be bothered to obtain a Cloak of Charisma +6 by level 16, raising that to a 26 and the save DC to a 28, well, the sorceror deserves failure. The item was affordable entire levels ago.

Not to mention the availability of inherent bonuses, which can add another point or so.

From there, lets note that when a fighter hits the dragon, while he may be relatively likely to do so, he's not going to kill the dragon in one hit. The chance of success for an attack which must be repeated innumerable times to kill a dragon should be high. The chance of success for an attack that functionally ends the fight in one successful hit should be very low.

Finally, the saves you've listed are pretty easy to get past. Lets do the math here. Lets take away the spell focus, and add a +6 cha enhancing item. The spell is now DC 26. The dragon's will save is... +16. So that gives you a 50% chance of success on your will save spell. Then you've got to get past SR 22. And you're at level 16. That requires a roll of at least 6. SIX. That means you've got a 75% chance of success on that as well. Putting the spellcaster's chance of wrecking the dragon's chances in one hit at 37.5% per attack.

That's awfully good, and can be enhanced with feats if you so choose. Considering the massive impact of high level spells, a 37.5% chance of success for a spellcaster who isn't particularly trying to pump his save DCs or his ability to get past spell resistance is pretty impressive.

 

[Victim]

Your AC comparison is skewed because dragons cast spells - there are several low level spells that can add quite a bit to AC. How many dragons won't have mage armor? And a dragon with a bigger complement of defensive buffs will be darn tough to hit. So the mages need to dispel the dragon before people can do anything to it. And you also need to restrict the dragon's movement, otherwise it can use its ~200 speed to easily control the range or escape. Dispels, defensive buffs, mobility, and battlefield control spells are critical in a dragon fight.

In my experience, your DCs are too low. What kind of 16th level wizard isn't going to pump up hit spellcasting stat since it determines how much stuff he can do AND how effective it is? But the dragon still needs a 9 or so against the 8th level Will spell, and a 7 against Fort (without buffs). Even after saves and SR, the wizard could still be looking at a 1 shot kill chance of 15+% or so. What's the fighter's 1 shot chance? And the dragon isn't so great vs Ref or touch spells.

Even so, high level stuff in general tends to increase saves. Basically, a single failed save can finish a creature. So monsters at high level need good saves the way they need good HP - so they don't die like a chump in round 1. Also, saves go up with HD, so big tough monsters tend to accrue lots of save bonuses. PC need good saves to minimize their failure chance so they can actually be doing things. And then there are more ways to increase save bonuses than there are to increase DCs.

 

[frankthedm]

But what about the poor non-evoker, who wants to frighten, fatigue, confuse, blind, or entangle a dragon.

Those effect come very close to taking a foe out of a battle. Dragons are often alone and give triple standard treasure. It is imperative they do not suffer those effects or the fights already half over and party is heading for the next tax bracket without a full drawn out combat in which the intelligent dragon has used it's superior flight speed to avoid the tanks and kill the spell slingers and archers.

As the caster, your first job is to dispel the dragon’s minor buffs. The dragon’s mage armor and shield really need to come down early on or the tanks will have a hard time with the dragon’s AC.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

The short answer is Cadfan is right.

The Sorceror should have around a 60% chance or higher of burning through the SR, and an unbuffed dragon will fail the save against that Heightened Hold Monster (just to pick a simple example) around 40% of the time.

Now that one spell succeeding is not going to guarantee victory, but it is still a ~24% of effectively throwing the dragon on the ropes with a single spell.

Obviously there are ways of pushing those odds up and down.

 

[frankthedm]

The Sorceror should have around a 60% chance or higher of burning through the SR, and an unbuffed dragon will fail the save against that Heightened Hold Monster (just to pick a simple example) around 40% of the time.

Now that one spell succeeding is not going to guarantee victory, but it is still a ~24% of effectively throwing the dragon on the ropes with a single spell.

Bad example. Dragons do not get paralyzed. That and sleep spells do not affect them.

 

[Solarious]

Dragons may be immune to paralysis, but they aren't immune to compulsions. It depends on how you interpet the Hold Person/Monster spells; does it cause paralysis, or does it cause the mind to be unable to move the body? Would a Suggestion for a rogue to become paranoid and tell them to stay in a dark corner and hide work if s/he were wearing a Ring of Freedom of Movement? The answer is probably yes, but less so for Hold spells, since the spell itself references the word paralysis.

It's ultimately a DM call, and I would say Hold spells work.

Back to Dragons, your players had better work quickly to apply the coup, or hope that you roll poorly, since Hold spells grants multiple saves.

 

[frankthedm]

Dragons may be immune to paralysis, but they aren't immune to compulsions. It depends on how you interpet the Hold Person/Monster spells

No it does not depend. Read the hold person/monster spells and the dragon Type. Next you'll try and claim dragons are not immune to the sleep spell...

Dragon Type:...
Immunity to magic sleep effects and paralysis effects.

Hold Person
Enchantment (Compulsion) [Mind-Affecting]
Level: Brd 2, Clr 2, Sor/Wiz 3
Components: V, S, F/DF
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Target: One humanoid creature
Duration: 1 round/level (D); see text
Saving Throw: Will negates; see text
Spell Resistance: Yes
The subject becomes paralyzed and freezes in place. It is aware and breathes normally but cannot take any actions, even speech. Each round on its turn, the subject may attempt a new saving throw to end the effect. (This is a full-round action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity.)
A winged creature who is paralyzed cannot flap its wings and falls. A swimmer can’t swim and may drown.
Arcane Focus: A small, straight piece of iron.

Hold Animal
Enchantment (Compulsion) [Mind-Affecting]
Level: Animal 2, Drd 2, Rgr 2 Components: V, S Target: One animal
This spell functions like hold person, except that it affects an animal instead of a humanoid.
Hold Monster
Enchantment (Compulsion) [Mind-Affecting]
Level: Brd 4, Law 6, Sor/Wiz 5 Components: V, S, M/DF Target: One living creature
This spell functions like hold person, except that it affects any living creature that fails its Will save.
Arcane Material Component: One hard metal bar or rod, which can be as small as a three-penny nail.

Hold Monster, Mass
Enchantment (Compulsion) [Mind-Affecting]
Level: Sor/Wiz 9 Targets: One or more creatures, no two of which can be more than 30 ft. apart
This spell functions like hold person, except that it affects multiple creatures and holds any living creature that fails its Will save.

Hold Person, Mass
Enchantment (Compulsion) [Mind-Affecting]
Level: Sor/Wiz 7 Targets: One or more humanoid creatures, no two of which can be more than 30 ft. apart
This spell functions like hold person, except as noted above.

Sleep
Enchantment (Compulsion) [Mind-Affecting]
Level: Brd 1, Sor/Wiz 1
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 round
Range: Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Area: One or more living creatures within a 10-ft.-radius burst
Duration: 1 min./level
Saving Throw: Will negates
Spell Resistance: Yes
A sleep spell causes a magical slumber to come upon 4 Hit Dice of creatures. Creatures with the fewest HD are affected first.

Among creatures with equal HD, those who are closest to the spell’s point of origin are affected first. Hit Dice that are not sufficient to affect a creature are wasted.

Sleeping creatures are helpless. Slapping or wounding awakens an affected creature, but normal noise does not. Awakening a creature is a standard action (an application of the aid another action).

Sleep does not target unconscious creatures, constructs, or undead creatures.

Material Component: A pinch of fine sand, rose petals, or a live cricket.