Dear post#3132721, don't blame me. I'm just the interpreter.

[Pinotage]

Our group just recently fought and killed a yound adult CR 13 red dragon. If we'd not prepared for it and know it was there, we'd be dead in a heartbeat. We got a few spells through (mostly no-save ones) but it was the fighters and the rogue/cleric that took it down. Still, they hurt badly - with low 20s ACs that dragon was power attacking like mad and each blow hurt like heck. A lot of spells fizzled on the SR as well. Overall, though I think they're fine - they're meant to be resistant to most things. While fighters might have an easier time, they still drop really easy as well given a dragon's insane number of attacks and Power Attack.

Pinotage

 

[JRRNeiklot]

Yup, we should go back to 1e where a 10th level fighter could obliterate an ancient huge red dragon in a couple of rounds without working up a sweat. 96 hp max anyone? Hrm, frostbrand longsword, girdle of giant strength for d12 +6+8 damage and 2 attacks per round that pretty much never miss. Bye bye dragon.

But don't let me disturb your nostalgia trip.

Huh? What brought that on? I never said anything about 1e. I was suggesting dragons should be MORE powerful, not less.

But if you want to talk 1e, no way should a 10th level fighter take out a 96 hit point anything in 2 rounds. Let's see, 2h sword, 18 (00) strength = 3d6 +6. That's 72 points max in 2 rounds if he hits with all 3 attacks. Assuming a +3 sword, that's 81. Meanwhile, said dragon does 96 hit points with his breath, 48 on a save. He can breathe 3 times. Not to mention the ancient red could have stoneskin up, or just play the snatch fly up, drop routine. This is without even using the attack routine.

That said, I agree AD&D dragons could have used some beefing up, hell, I think 3e dragons need beefing up. I like my dragons to be rare and terrible to behold. Attacking one should be done only in the direst circumstances, not just to pad ones purse.

 

[monboesen]

Huh? What brought that on? I never said anything about 1e. I was suggesting dragons should be MORE powerful, not less.

Huh? Right back at you

In my 6 years of DM'ing 3ed I have never found Dragons lacking in power. In my experience they are the toughest critters by their CR of all.

I've seen demons die to hp deficiency, giants succumb to confusions and holds and dead humanoids in large piles. But dragons, they have terrified my players everytime, often to the point where they have fled (and we all know that doesn't happen often).

I just dont see any reason dragons should be more powerful, heck just grab a bigger pne if you are having problems.

 

[Fishbone]

I would like to clarify my original dragon power statement. I do not find Dragons underpowered, not in the least. In fact, I find them to be needlessly, ludicrously over-the-top. The party needs at least some way for it to reasonably deal a serious blow to the dragon and spells are the way to do it. And even though it appears easy to throw out a ray or target the Reflex save a smart dragon will know a 1001 endruns around it. In short, screw dragons. They shouldn't cast and they shouldn't be this friggin' badass. I will say that dragons should be badass, this isn't Lizardfolk and Living Rooms, but COME ON. 4th edition seriously needs to tone them down a notch.

 

[FireLance]

That said, I agree AD&D dragons could have used some beefing up, hell, I think 3e dragons need beefing up. I like my dragons to be rare and terrible to behold. Attacking one should be done only in the direst circumstances, not just to pad ones purse.

Just make sure that every dragon encountered by the party has a CR 4 or more higher than the average character level. By definition, a party isn't going to find an encounter with a dragon of equal CR to be particularly terrible (barring really bad tactics or luck).

 

[Hussar]

See, if we go with the idea that dragons should be rare and terrible, then why the heck do we need different age levels?

We could cut down on about fifteen pages in the MM if we stripped out the age level stuff in dragons and then just made them all wyrms. We don't bother with age levels for most creatures. Why are dragon's special.

Then again, I would love to see a campaign of dragon hunters. Start with some wyrmlings and then move on up the chain.

 

[Nightfall]

Ranger man,

i'm glad to see you know the error in your thinking. Cause if you thought Dragons saves were too high...you haven't see what happens when a wizard "enthralls" a bunch of Ogre barbarians... It's not pretty.

 

[Cam Banks]

My players took out an old black dragon with Otto's irresistable dance.

I hate that spell.

Cheers,
Cam

 

[Nightfall]

Cam,

I feel for you man. Silly kenders and dancing!

 

[frankthedm]

I'd just want to inderdict with a quick highjack here to tell a story about a dragon our party fought back in 3.0.

The party was 12th level, fighting the appropriate CRd (heh) 21hd mature adult white dragon. Our party was being thwarted by its fog cloud ability, making it impossible for us to target it with spells, while we were drilled by its breathweapon and reach attacks via blindsense. Obviously the three spellcasters started throwing targeted dispel magics. Our DM decided for some reason that caster level should be based off of hit dice as dragons were 'the supreme spellcasters of the world, being created from magic'. This wasn't a thing particular to our world, he just thought that without hard to dispel spells, his dragon would be useless. This resulted in 4 dispel magics going off (one of them rolling an 18 on the d20) and non of them working. We lost half the party that day before we teleported out, and that was the campaign's last session. Gee I've wanted to tell that story for a while

/end highjack

That is pretty damn bad. Dispeling those buffs and minor tweeks is hyper important.