Dear post#3132721, don't blame me. I'm just the interpreter.

[Solarious]

The real problem is reading the intent behind the spell: is the word paralyzed flavour, and it is a pure mind-affecting/compulsion, or does it actually induce paralysis? I would agree that poisons that cause paralysis such as the Carrion Crawler, and it's namesake Brain Juice are things dragons are immune to. It's just the fact that Holds are mind affecting effects makes it complicated.

We should also probably move this discussion to the Rules board if you want to continue this, because I'm happy just to say 'We agree to disagree'.

 

[Fishbone]

Bullhonkey. Dragons are totally vulnerable to Ray attacks. Ray attack normally do not allow a save as the to hit roll is treated as the drawback, not a save. Also, their reflex saves suck! Even with Cat's Grace up a dragon needs to roll 13 or better or fail its save, without Cat's grace it is in a world of hurt.

 

[TheAuldGrump]

The real problem is reading the intent behind the spell: is the word paralyzed flavour, and it is a pure mind-affecting/compulsion, or does it actually induce paralysis? I would agree that poisons that cause paralysis such as the Carrion Crawler, and it's namesake Brain Juice are things dragons are immune to. It's just the fact that Holds are mind affecting effects makes it complicated.

We should also probably move this discussion to the Rules board if you want to continue this, because I'm happy just to say 'We agree to disagree'.

If it uses the term paralyzed then it means paralyzed. Therefor the spell does not work - if you want to say otherwise then fine, but the RAW is pretty clear in this case. And for good measure the term is used multiple times in the descriptor.

Next.

The Auld Grump

 

[JRRNeiklot]

Dragons should not even have to roll, they should automatically make all saves.

 

[Fishbone]

Dragons are way underCRd/overpowered as it is, the weak reflex saves and ray vulnerability are two of the only ways to combat one. At the highest levels they have very good saves, spells like Globes of Invulnerability to keep spells out, and nice SR. So getting one to succumb to a spell is pretty hard. But not impossible. Dragons saves aren't too high but that isn't the biggest problem. Everything about the dragon is too high.

 

[Thunderfoot]

I concur with Fishbone, Dragons should be more frightening than they are currently portrayed. In melee attacks alone, the dragon is being nerfed by the RAW - Bite/claw/claw OR tail slap Bull hockey! Bite/claw/claw/tail slap/wing buffet/wing buffet. That's right, 6 melee attacks on a full attack should be the way to go, tail slaps and wing buffets are knockdown hits too. Takes care of those pesky rogues and keeps everyone in range of that devastating breath weapon.

If dragons live so long, the real question is how did they get to be so old? Because they are either powerful enough to bully their way to old age or wily enough to get there through cunning. Trapping a dragon in his/her lair should be nearly impossible. (How many characters have back doors to their lairs/castles/stronholds for just such an emergency?)

BTW Wickett, I just want to know how much I respect the fact that you actually posted this AFTER you figured out you were mistaken. Gutsy, dude, very gutsy!

 

[Krud]

I'd just want to inderdict with a quick highjack here to tell a story about a dragon our party fought back in 3.0.

The party was 12th level, fighting the appropriate CRd (heh) 21hd mature adult white dragon. Our party was being thwarted by its fog cloud ability, making it impossible for us to target it with spells, while we were drilled by its breathweapon and reach attacks via blindsense. Obviously the three spellcasters started throwing targeted dispel magics. Our DM decided for some reason that caster level should be based off of hit dice as dragons were 'the supreme spellcasters of the world, being created from magic'. This wasn't a thing particular to our world, he just thought that without hard to dispel spells, his dragon would be useless. This resulted in 4 dispel magics going off (one of them rolling an 18 on the d20) and non of them working. We lost half the party that day before we teleported out, and that was the campaign's last session. Gee I've wanted to tell that story for a while

/end highjack

 

[Hussar]

Dragons should not even have to roll, they should automatically make all saves.

Yup, we should go back to 1e where a 10th level fighter could obliterate an ancient huge red dragon in a couple of rounds without working up a sweat. 96 hp max anyone? Hrm, frostbrand longsword, girdle of giant strength for d12 +6+8 damage and 2 attacks per round that pretty much never miss. Bye bye dragon.

But don't let me disturb your nostalgia trip.

 

[Herobizkit]

Yup, we should go back to 1e where a 10th level fighter could obliterate an ancient huge red dragon in a couple of rounds without working up a sweat. 96 hp max anyone? Hrm, frostbrand longsword, girdle of giant strength for d12 +6+8 damage and 2 attacks per round that pretty much never miss. Bye bye dragon.

... And don't forget the 2e dragon, who, for all of its multiple attacks, never had enough attacks to take care of the double specialized/grand master longsword-wielding Dragonslayer kitted Ranger, who killed an adult Red dragon BY HIMSELF in one round.

Dragon were bee-hotches in 2e. Then again, elves were 420 xp a pop in 2e as well. Think about it.

 

[Evilhalfling]

well they dont always make saves either.
I ended up with a feebleminded red tonight - they eventually mercy killed the poor wounded beast, after a considering several other uses
of course the party was averaging 1 melee hit per round - with MA and shield AC 37 was a stretch for most of them.


since it was actually only a similacrum, the villian would have loved for them to take it home, or sell it off to someone else.