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Death and 0 Max HP

dnd4vr

Explorer
But there's no rule that you need more than 0 hp to be alive, so a Revifiy or Raise Dead cast on the corpse will restore them to life with 0 HP, and then it's time for Aid.
Thinking... ok, so I had to recheck Revivify and Raise Dead and I can hear my DM now:

"Since both spells return the target corpse to life with 1 hit point, they won't work since you cannot have more hit points than your maximum. Her maximum is 0 until she finishes a long rest. She can't finish a long rest because she is dead. And since Aid can only be cast on a creature (a living target, not an object such as a corpse), it won't work while she is dead, so can't help her overcome the restriction placed on her due to the other spells returning her with 1 hit point."

I am pretty sure that is how our DM will rule it, anyway.

As we finished the session, the NPC cleric explained "perhaps" a great restoration spell will remove the power of the vampire's bite and then she can be raised, but it was beyond his power. Honestly, as others have pointed out, RAW even Greater Restoration won't work for the same reason Aid won't--because she is now an object, not a creature. We might find a powerful priest and have them explain we need something greater even... who knows?
 
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MarkB

Adventurer
What this really comes down to is, how long does your DM want to keep one player's character out of the game? They need to either offer you a solution so that you can work towards bringing the character back in, or let you know that there isn't a solution so that the player can bring in their next character.
 
This is the spot where I would go with rulings (and IMO RAI) over rules.
Absolutely. I figured I’d have to come up with a ruling (though for me it wouldn’t be to allow greater restoration to work on a dead body, because that breaks a greater rule than alternative options in my mind), but after a closer examination realized that it actually can work as a fairly strong interpretation of RAW if greater restoration follows rather than precedes the raise dead.

Although this twitter thread suggests Crawford would play it as you suggest, cast GR right after raise dead.
Yeah. Not completely the same, but really close.
 

Oofta

Title? I don't need no stinkin' title.
Once they're Raised the Gentle Repose would not be in effect.

They've been infected with vampirism, a magical disease, so they come back vampirised. I'd have them turn into a vampire later, as happened to my first PC in ES IV: Oblivion. She completed the game without feeding, then after failing to find a cure she walked into the sunlight.
Nowhere does it state in the rules that the victim has been infected with a magic disease. Let me quote it again:
"The target dies if this effect reduces its hit point maximum to 0. A humanoid slain in this way and then buried in the ground rises the following night as a vampire spawn under the vampire's control"

No mention of disease. In addition, they need to be buried in the ground before they come back as a vampire spawn. As long as the PC is not buried they cannot be transformed into a vampire. In addition you can't have it both ways. Either they're dead and the gentle repose is still in effect and they can't become undead or they're alive and can be healed after a greater restoration. If they're alive they don't turn into a vampire.

That's my take on it anyway, if it ever comes up at your table feel free to run it however you want. I don't think it would be fun to tell a player that their PC is in effect irrevocably dead because of bad luck.
 

MarkB

Adventurer
[MENTION=6801845]Oofta[/MENTION] I agree with your interpretation, in particular because of the vampire's "chained to the grave" aspect - they are fundamentally tied to the place where they were buried. No burial, no vampire.
 

Maxperson

Orcus on an on Day
But there's no rule that you need more than 0 hp to be alive, so a Revifiy or Raise Dead cast on the corpse will restore them to life with 0 HP, and then it's time for Aid.
The rule is, though, that you die at 0 max hit points from the blood loss of the vampire bite. That 0 max hit points is still in effect the moment the Raise Dead is cast. The PC would just die again.
 

LordEntrails

Explorer
The rule is, though, that you die at 0 max hit points from the blood loss of the vampire bite. That 0 max hit points is still in effect the moment the Raise Dead is cast. The PC would just die again.
Or would they just be in a comma? i.e. unconscious and unable to become conscious because they can't get (normal) hit points?

Hence why I might rule Raise Dead followed by Aid or other temporary hit points would get the character conscious, then either a long rest (if the tempo HP last that long) or Greater Restoration so that they can then take a long rest and regain their hit point max.
 

Maxperson

Orcus on an on Day
Or would they just be in a comma? i.e. unconscious and unable to become conscious because they can't get (normal) hit points?
Coma isn't a condition, so I would think it would be death. They still meet all the necessary conditions to die. Drained to 0 max hit points by the bite.

Hence why I might rule Raise Dead followed by Aid or other temporary hit points would get the character conscious, then either a long rest (if the tempo HP last that long) or Greater Restoration so that they can then take a long rest and regain their hit point max.
I can see that and I wouldn't argue such a ruling in a game. I'm just not sure if I would go that way or not as DM. I definitely would not allow temporary hit points to work. They specify that they don't stop unconsciousness or stabilize you, and that latter portion would keep me from allowing it to keep the PC alive. The max hit points from Aid are different, though, and I might allow that.
 

LordEntrails

Explorer
Coma isn't a condition, so I would think it would be death. They still meet all the necessary conditions to die. Drained to 0 max hit points by the bite.
I wasn't suggesting comma was a RAW "condition", rather a natural language idea that exists in the real world and could be used as an analog in game :)

We do know that a character can be unconscious at 0 HP (or dead), and that is what I was implying. That a character could be unconscious, at 0 HP and effectively in a comma since they could not normally gain HP to become conscious.

I don't know how I would rule, but this thread has been a good discussion with valuable ideas. As others have said, whatever the ruling, it needs to be decisive so the game can move on, and as always, it should lead to "fun".
 

Maxperson

Orcus on an on Day
Is there anything you can do to give him temporary HP?

That should work.
As I pointed out, RAW states that temporary hit points do not stabilize people or restore consciousness, so they wouldn't work in this case. The victim would just die again. Aid might work since it raises the hit point maximum for 8 hours, which would allow him to both survive and take a long rest. At least as long as the DM doesn't rule that the victim dies again before the spell can be cast.
 
The rule is, though, that you die at 0 max hit points from the blood loss of the vampire bite. That 0 max hit points is still in effect the moment the Raise Dead is cast. The PC would just die again.
As I interpret the rule death by vampire bite is triggered at the moment that max HP is reduced to 0, I see no reason to think it would trigger again if the character is resurrected with 0 max HP already.
 

S'mon

Hero
Nowhere does it state in the rules that the victim has been infected with a magic disease. Let me quote it again:
"The target dies if this effect reduces its hit point maximum to 0. A humanoid slain in this way and then buried in the ground rises the following night as a vampire spawn under the vampire's control"

No mention of disease. In addition, they need to be buried in the ground before they come back as a vampire spawn. As long as the PC is not buried they cannot be transformed into a vampire. In addition you can't have it both ways. Either they're dead and the gentle repose is still in effect and they can't become undead or they're alive and can be healed after a greater restoration. If they're alive they don't turn into a vampire.

That's my take on it anyway, if it ever comes up at your table feel free to run it however you want. I don't think it would be fun to tell a player that their PC is in effect irrevocably dead because of bad luck.
It's a situation the rules don't cover. I think a vampiric curse would be interesting for roleplay - I didn't say anything about taking away the character.
 

Harzel

Explorer
The rule is, though, that you die at 0 max hit points from the blood loss of the vampire bite. That 0 max hit points is still in effect the moment the Raise Dead is cast. The PC would just die again.
Actually, the rule (vampire stat block) does not mention blood loss, it just says, "The target's hit point maximum is reduced by an amount equal to the necrotic damage taken. ... The target dies if this effect reduces its hit point maximum to 0." To me, in the plain reading of that the only condition (something that might persist) involved is "0 max HP"; everything else is events (things that happen and are then done). Your position seems to be based on having a condition that is something like "remains dead as long as max HP is 0", which is plainly language that is not in the rule. That position is more comprehensible if you consider the blood loss fluff to be part of the rule. The problem, of course, with dragging that fluff into the rules is that there are no corresponding mechanics for dealing with blood loss. This leaves one in the position of either requiring a Wish to solve the problem, or backing off and allowing Aid or Greater Restoration to work "even though it shouldn't".
 

Harzel

Explorer
Thinking... ok, so I had to recheck Revivify and Raise Dead and I can hear my DM now:

"Since both spells return the target corpse to life with 1 hit point, they won't work since you cannot have more hit points than your maximum. Her maximum is 0 until she finishes a long rest. She can't finish a long rest because she is dead. And since Aid can only be cast on a creature (a living target, not an object such as a corpse), it won't work while she is dead, so can't help her overcome the restriction placed on her due to the other spells returning her with 1 hit point."

I am pretty sure that is how our DM will rule it, anyway.

As we finished the session, the NPC cleric explained "perhaps" a great restoration spell will remove the power of the vampire's bite and then she can be raised, but it was beyond his power. Honestly, as others have pointed out, RAW even Greater Restoration won't work for the same reason Aid won't--because she is now an object, not a creature. We might find a powerful priest and have them explain we need something greater even... who knows?
Not to put too fine a point on it, but I think perhaps your DM (or at least your DM as represented in your fevered imagination ;)) needs to cool it with the questionable legalisms. Casting Raise Dead on a corpse with 0 max HP appears to create a conflict between two rules: 1) HP cannot exceed max HP; and 2) a spell does what it says it does. Resolving the conflict requires asserting for the spell 1) an implicit restriction (the spell fails if the corpse's max HP is 0) or 2) an implicit additional function (the spell raises the raised creature's max HP to 1 if necessary) or 3) an additional exceptional mode (if the corpse's max HP is 0, the raised creatures HP is 0, not 1). I don't see any reasoning based strictly on the rules that justifies choosing one of these over the others. In this case, it seems to me that the appropriate course is to consider RAI and RAF, which, to me, both lean heavily against #1.
 

dnd4vr

Explorer
So, I talked to him last night about it and he gave me a heads up for next session. It turns out we will need two clerics, one for Greater Restoration and one for Raise Dead, to perform the casting together somehow. I guess I'll learn more at the time. He might even have a minor priest perform Aid or something else like Remove Curse as well.
 

Maxperson

Orcus on an on Day
Actually, the rule (vampire stat block) does not mention blood loss, it just says, "The target's hit point maximum is reduced by an amount equal to the necrotic damage taken. ... The target dies if this effect reduces its hit point maximum to 0." To me, in the plain reading of that the only condition (something that might persist) involved is "0 max HP"; everything else is events (things that happen and are then done). Your position seems to be based on having a condition that is something like "remains dead as long as max HP is 0", which is plainly language that is not in the rule. That position is more comprehensible if you consider the blood loss fluff to be part of the rule. The problem, of course, with dragging that fluff into the rules is that there are no corresponding mechanics for dealing with blood loss. This leaves one in the position of either requiring a Wish to solve the problem, or backing off and allowing Aid or Greater Restoration to work "even though it shouldn't".
The mechanic, "Dies when max hit points are 0 from the vampire bite." remains, though. The blood loss was just mentioned, because it's a freaking vampire that just drained you via a bite. It's pretty obvious that no blood is why the PC died from that mechanic. You would only survive if the DM believes that the Raise Dead spell restores the hit point maximum to normal. Me, I don't see the death occurring from poison or nonmagical disease, so I would answer that with a no.
 

jaelis

Explorer
Just from a rules lawyering perspective, "The target dies if this effect reduces its hit point maximum to 0" is a trigger, not a status effect. At the moment the vampire reduces the hp maximum to zero, the target dies. If the target is later raised, then even it it remains at 0 hp, the "die when you are reduced to zero" no longer applies because the triggering condition was not met. There is no general rule that you instantly die whenever your hp maximum is zero.
 

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