Death and Storytelling

Les Moore

Explorer
Shy of straight-up Murderhoboing, there is a name for what we all participate in, on a D&D quest:

We kill the bad guys, yes. (and who would be able to say if that's strictly legal, given any such setting) but we also plunder for loot. There's a real world name for this
behavior, "Brigandage". I'm not calling upon the legal or moral aspects of it, as it is in a fantasy realm. But this type of lifestyle and action goes hard on a
person, in real life. Being a "land pirate", simply put, historically, has a high mortality rate. We call it "Adventuring" of course, and it is in a fantasy realm,
but if we are to be realistic about the life expectancy of our characters, we have to embrace the simple fact of the survival percentages of a Marauder.

So, while TPKs are a bit of a downer, and tend to be disruptive to a campaign, we have to expect a certain amount of
party attrition, through loss of PCs, over a period of time In essence, this adds to the clarity and reality of a campaign.
 
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Aenghus

Explorer
Shy of straight-up Murderhoboing, there is a name for what we all participate in, on a D&D quest:

Except we don't all participate in this, at least not in the same way. Throughout the editions, game style and genre have varied amazingly from group to group and campaign to campaign. A significant minority of campaigns avoid the sort of behaviour what would label them brigands, whether that's the decision of the participants or at the insistence of the GM.

GMing murderhobos or even neutralish extreme self interest can be wearing, and limiting on the type of adventures that can be run. It's possible to keep uglier stuff off camera, or in soft focus, and zoom in on more accessible activities.

D&D, like any other RPG, can be what we want it to be, and can omit content we want to omit. There's no need to focus on content that any of the participants feels goes too far, quite the opposite in fact IMO.

We kill the bad guys, yes. (and who would be able to say if that's strictly legal, given any such setting) but we also plunder for loot. There's a real world name for this
behavior, "Brigandage". I'm not calling upon the legal or moral aspects of it, as it is in a fantasy realm. But this type of lifestyle and action goes hard on a
person, in real life. Being a "land pirate", simply put, historically, has a high mortality rate. We call it "Adventuring" of course, and it is in a fantasy realm,
but if we are to be realistic about the life expectancy of our characters, we have to embrace the simple fact of the survival percentages of a Marauder.

So, while TPKs are a bit of a downer, and tend to be disruptive to a campaign, we have to expect a certain amount of
party attrition, through loss of PCs, over a period of time.

This doesn't have to be the case, if the participants don't want it. Shock horror, campaigns, house ruling and rule zero apply in all directions, and can facilitate content you personally aren't interested in.
 

Les Moore

Explorer
Except we don't all participate in this, at least not in the same way. Throughout the editions, game style and genre have varied amazingly from group to group and campaign to campaign. A significant minority of campaigns avoid the sort of behaviour what would label them brigands, whether that's the decision of the participants or at the insistence of the GM.

GMing murderhobos or even neutralish extreme self interest can be wearing, and limiting on the type of adventures that can be run. It's possible to keep uglier stuff off camera, or in soft focus, and zoom in on more accessible activities.

D&D, like any other RPG, can be what we want it to be, and can omit content we want to omit. There's no need to focus on content that any of the participants feels goes too far, quite the opposite in fact IMO.



This doesn't have to be the case, if the participants don't want it. Shock horror, campaigns, house ruling and rule zero apply in all directions, and can facilitate content you personally aren't interested in.

You are delving into morality, which is not the issue here. The point is it's a hard-knock life, and people have a higher accelerated death rate than the norm.
It, as I tried to explain, unsuccessfully, before, has nothing to to with morality and ethics, "right or wrong".
It has to do with mortality, and frailty, wear and tear.
 
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Aenghus

Explorer
You are delving into morality, which is not the issue here. The point is it's a hard-knock life, and people have a higher accelerated death rate than the norm.
It, as I tried to explain, unsuccessfully, before, has nothing to to with "right or wrong". It has to do with wear and tear.

But the amount of wear and tear can vary a lot from game to game, and there are no police that enforce a particular rate of wear an tear. I've been in plenty of games where the PCs could have been called "brigands" with a varying degree of vaildity, but plenty of other games where that wasn't the case, and where the PC casualty rate was distinctly lower, or even zero.
 

Les Moore

Explorer
Doesn't sound like D&D, to me. Do you battle monsters? Do you plunder valuable,rare, and highly sought-after treasures? Do you spend any time in a dungeon,
sneaking about town, investigating anomalies? Do you ever fare poorly in an encounter? Do you ever have a critical failure? Does a plan ever backfire?
It all puts on mileage, unless it's all Faeries dancing through the Lilacs.
 

Li Shenron

Legend
However, most popular heroic fantasy storytelling in particular, outside of gaming, does not usually see its main protagonist(s) die: Conan, Drizzt, Bilbo, Aragon, they all survive their ordeals. In a game where each player's PC is the main protagonist, how to reconcile PC death with the storytelling?

Serial books need to keep selling. Kill off the main character, and you won't sell any continuation book, you'd have to find a new idea for another story. Tolkien obviously didn't need to do that because he didn't write book series, but for example Forgotten Realm novels won't likely kill off the most popular characters.

Also, what do your games look like with regards to personal agendas/quests for PCs, as opposed to common quests? I love it when PCs have individual reasons to be in the story, and individual goals, as long as the group has reason to stick together and pursue a common goal of course, and the personal agendas don't interefere too much. Does this happen in your groups? If so, how do you reconcile the loose ends, or unifinished chapters of those personal agendas or quests, when those PC's die?

Not every player is interested in personal agendas, but for those who are, the agendas are neverending. Reach one goal, they figure out another. It doesn't matter if they die between goals 3 and 4, or between goals 7 and 8.

There is a thread presently running on the question of fudging dice, and this topic somewhat coincides with this one: in my experience, a lot of die fudging by DM's occurs to avoid PC death. I have no survey to rely my assumption on, but it seems to me like a DM saving a PC from death by fudging the dice, has little to do with avoiding the creation of a new PC by the player, a task that is usually quite enjoyable. I think it probably has more to do with (a) the DM expecting that the player is attached to his or her PC and would not take well to the PC dying (I won't go into this aspect here), and (b) to the point of this thread, that the story spun around that PC will not work anymore.

I don't fudge dice to save a PC from death.

Instead, I just let a player choose between death and some other penalty.

Of course, the tension in the RPG is often a result of the possible death of PC's. There is suspense in not knowing whether you PC will survive, as a player. And you must select your strategies when you enter battle, instead of being foolhardy or disinterested, if only because you wish for you PC to surive - notwithstanding having fun playing and wanting to create an interesting story during that battle also. So the possibility of death is always present and, moreso, is an interesting part of the game.

The tension is still there, even if I would let live a character that has technically died. Players don't like penalties, and they don't like feeling they are bad at the game.

That said, I've played in several short and campaigns of the last 4 decades where no PC died. And in others where many PC's died. In both cases, there is the real or perceived impression that the PC's can die at any time. This is part of the RPG premise, at least in a vast majority of games presumably. Have you played in games where PC's simply don't die? Where the DM deploys sometimes obvious efforts to make PC's survive? (I have.) If so, does this kill the suspense and otherwise negatively affect the gaming experience for you?

Yes, the DM fudging or helping with ex-machina intervention has a negative effect. That's why I don't do those.

Negotiating a penalty instead of death is not the same. A price to pay for the player is still there.

And actually if you think about it, when you enforce PC's death, there is nothing a DM could do to prevent a player create a new character that is basically identical to the previous. If the DM just says no, it feels an unfair intrusion over character creation, and will have a negative effect on the game too. If the DM says yes, it still feels very sour from a story point of view (e.g. the old "turns out my PC had a twin who is now taking over" is really bad).

So if the player has the intention of creating essentially a copycat PC, it's just better to let her keep playing the previous. It is generally accepted by players to receive a penalty in exchange for this.

Before that however, I actually encourage players to let their PC go, and see it as an opportunity to play a different characters. There are 12 classes, 9 races and 40 archetypes in the PHB to try!

So, in the end, how do you reconcile death with the storytelling? Not all deaths are heroic gestures that save the day to the expense of the PC's life. Some seem pretty insignificant, sometimes the consequence of a sequence of unlucky rolls or bad decisions. The PC death is likely to leave some loose ends and unfinished business: that PC had reasons to want to achieve the general goal, and reasons to interact with some PCs and NPCs that are still part of the story. How do you reconcile that, in your gaming groups?

I remind the players that for every unfinished business they have, as a DM I probably have at least 20 unfinished businesses :)

Other than that, agendas and goals are good also when they are aren't achieved, because they serve as a compass. I always say that, as most things in life, the journey towards a goal isn't a mean to the end... it's the goal that works as a mean to make you take the journey, which is the real end.
 

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
GMing murderhobos or even neutralish extreme self interest can be wearing
I get this; even if I don't necessarily agree with it.
and limiting on the type of adventures that can be run.
But this makes no sense.

You can run a group of the most murderous of hoboes through a high-heroism adventure any time you want; or through any other adventure for all that. All you have to do is set the type of hooks that'll grab their interest. Hell, Han has no interest at all in rescuing Leia until he's told she's rich...

You just have to be prepared for if-when those adventures don't necessarily turn out like the adventure writers (or you) expect. Happy-ever-after might be a very rare event. :)

Lanefan
 
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Aenghus

Explorer
Doesn't sound like D&D, to me. Do you battle monsters? Do you plunder valuable,rare, and highly sought-after treasures? Do you spend any time in a dungeon,
sneaking about town, investigating anomalies? Do you ever fare poorly in an encounter? Do you ever have a critical failure? Does a plan ever backfire?
It all puts on mileage, unless it's all Faeries dancing through the Lilacs.

Actually, I can run entire sessions with no combat or overt danger, there's plenty of other RPG material that can be captivating for the right players. Mysteries, social networking, research, sneaking, wheeling and dealing can all happen without combat being triggered regularly or at all. Plans can go badly wrong without immediately triggering violence, and yes, the players felt it was a real failure.

It's entirely possible to run D&D for a variety of genres, including dangerous dungeoneering, but the degree of danger and violence can vary from extreme to none. I freely admit most D&D games involve violence, but it is possible to run less violent games.

Strangely enough, my most recent non violent game involved my party being lost in the feywild and encountering weirdness, there were faeries and flowers in there, there could have been lilacs.
 

Aenghus

Explorer
I get this; even if I don't necessarily agree with it.
But this makes no sense.

You can run a group of the most murderous of hoboes through a high-heroism adventure any time you want; or through any other adventure for all that. All you have to do is set the type of hooks that'll grab their interest. Hell, Han has no interest at all in rescuing Leia until he's told she's rich...

You jaut have to be prepared for if-when those adventures don't necessarily turn out like the adventure writers (or you) expect. Happy-ever-after might be a very rare event. :)

Lanefan

Been there, done that, as a player and a referee. It's just that I don't like running PC-created ugly situations and ruthlessness most of the time. It messes with what I get out of the game. I soft focus or move off camera much of this stuff, so anyone who wants it will be disappointed in my game. I like old fashioned good guy plots, and conscripting grittier parties into such adventures mostly seems forced IMO.

But I have a right to enjoy the game I'm running as well, and in most cases I deliberately restrict character concepts to broadcast-tv acceptable protagonists, so good and neutral types. Players who feel overly constrained by this are free to leave. Some of the PCs in my game have occasionally done dodgy things, but so long as it feels it arose organically from the situation and the PC personality I generally let it ride.
 
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Tony Vargas

Legend
But this makes no sense.

You can run a group of the most murderous of hoboes through a high-heroism adventure any time you want; or through any other adventure for all that. All you have to do is set the type of hooks that'll grab their interest. Hell, Han has no interest at all in rescuing Leia until he's told she's rich...

You just have to be prepared for if-when those adventures don't necessarily turn out like the adventure writers (or you) expect. Happy-ever-after might be a very rare event. :)
That's the point. A campaign isn't just a set of situations, it can include themes, genre expectation, etc. The murder-hoboism D&D seems to engender in some players is incompatible with many of those.

Though, you could always put out the hooks like you say, let the PCs do their thing, and then TPK them with a group of NPC heroes to whom they are only a 'moderate encounter...'

... repeatedly.

I expect it'd get old.

Eventually...
 

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