Death Attack, the BIG threat...

[javgoro]

There are plenty of ways to raise saving throws if you know how to optimize.

Pretty much that. Prestige classing out of Fighter into just about any Fighter PrC or simply multiclassing for a single level of, say, Cleric, will give him another +2 on top of it (and, quite frankly, who takes more than 4 levels of Fighter these days, unless you really need all the feats?). To fully optimize that assassin for the Death Attack and not doing the same for the fighter dude is at the very least slanting the comparison.

Now let's take the Assassin as, not an NPC, but a PC. Pit him against a guy that's 2 levels above him, and is decently optimized. See your Death Attack do nothing, even after you've been studying the guy for 3 rounds, hit him by surprise. Then tell me the DC isn't terrible.

 

[Dandu]

Even when the DC isn't terrible, it's still not better than the DC of, say Baleful Polymorph. Which can be cast from much further away. By an invisible person.

 

[Belzbet]

Now let's take the Assassin as, not an NPC, but a PC. Pit him against a guy that's 2 levels above him, and is decently optimized. See your Death Attack do nothing, even after you've been studying the guy for 3 rounds, hit him by surprise. Then tell me the DC isn't terrible.

Yeah Death attack does get much less useful if you are a PC, however the DC is not low. Also, of course you can optimize your saves, in my example the characters have decently high saves. We know we can get really high saving throws, but not all characters do (some dont want to waste the ability increase, feat, level dip, ability point, etc, etc, and they cpould still be optimized (an optimized wizard with low fort. is HIGHLY possible). So, saying "we can optimize saving throws" has little to do with the relative power of death attacks DC. Also, the DC of death attack is dependent on the characters Int. So if you can get high Int. your death attack is higher. Choose a race with a bonus to Int. also funnel all of your ability increases into Int., give Int. an 18, buy the most expensive Headband of Int. you can afford, find feats that increase Int. dependent variables (I am sure there may be one, like spellcasting prodigy but not resticted to spell DC's), cast Fox's Cunning (+2DC an assassins spell!), etc, etc, this character will have a high Death attack DC (and there will be situations where the PC can shine). One can even optimize a NPC 2 levels above the assassin and it could still kill him with death attack (Fortification is good though). Yeah a paladin with high cha. cloaks of resistence, high con., dips in fighter, etc, would be very hard to kill with death attack (yeah for divine grace!); but that doesnt mean a DM could create adventures to that are winnable yet still challenging for the assassin PC (even against higher level optimized opponents). If you read the prerequisites for Ability Focus (monster feat), and if you are allowed to take monster feats, then thats +2 to DC (the prereq. for ability focus is a "special attack" it doesnt seem to restrict that to "natural" special attacks, so death attack may qualify you for ability focus (It is a special attack its just gained through a class).

 

[javgoro]

Yeah Death attack does get much less useful if you are a PC, however the DC is not low. Also, of course you can optimize your saves, in my example the characters have decently high saves. We know we can get really high saving throws, but not all characters do (some dont want to waste the ability increase, feat, level dip, ability point, etc, etc, and they cpould still be optimized (an optimized wizard with low fort. is HIGHLY possible). So, saying "we can optimize saving throws" has little to do with the relative power of death attacks DC. Also, the DC of death attack is dependent on the characters Int. So if you can get high Int. your death attack is higher. Choose a race with a bonus to Int. also funnel all of your ability increases into Int., give Int. an 18, buy the most expensive Headband of Int. you can afford, find feats that increase Int. dependent variables (I am sure there may be one, like spellcasting prodigy but not resticted to spell DC's), cast Fox's Cunning (+2DC an assassins spell!), etc, etc, this character will have a high Death attack DC (and there will be situations where the PC can shine). One can even optimize a NPC 2 levels above the assassin and it could still kill him with death attack (Fortification is good though). Yeah a paladin with high cha. cloaks of resistence, high con., dips in fighter, etc, would be very hard to kill with death attack (yeah for divine grace!); but that doesnt mean a DM could create adventures to that are winnable yet still challenging for the assassin PC (even against higher level optimized opponents). If you read the prerequisites for Ability Focus (monster feat), and if you are allowed to take monster feats, then thats +2 to DC (the prereq. for ability focus is a "special attack" it doesnt seem to restrict that to "natural" special attacks, so death attack may qualify you for ability focus (It is a special attack its just gained through a class).

The biggest problem with optimizing the save DC through intelligence is that it's a sub-par option for an assassin, considering that you will need dexterity to avoid being hit in combat and for stealth skills, strength for straight-out combat (the kind of which you tend to do far more than death attacks, in general) and intelligence is therefore a second or third option, since it affects your spellcasting (which isn't a great factor for assassins, as their most used spells tend to be the buffing type rather than the "roll a save against" type, at least in my experience) and your save DC, more than anything.

This said, I agree, if you want to focus on it, you can get it to decent DC's, but I still think that's a sub-par option.

 

[kitcik]

The biggest problem with optimizing the save DC through intelligence is that it's a sub-par option for an assassin, considering that you will need dexterity to avoid being hit in combat and for stealth skills, strength for straight-out combat (the kind of which you tend to do far more than death attacks, in general) and intelligence is therefore a second or third option, since it affects your spellcasting (which isn't a great factor for assassins, as their most used spells tend to be the buffing type rather than the "roll a save against" type, at least in my experience) and your save DC, more than anything.

This said, I agree, if you want to focus on it, you can get it to decent DC's, but I still think that's a sub-par option.

This gets back to the whole PC / NPC thing. While this may be subpar for a PC, it may be right up the alley of an NPC.

Therefore, I agree with whoeveer said before that Death Attack DCs of NPCs (where NPC level > PC level and NPC has high Int) can be good, while PC Death Attack DCs are generally "craptacular" as stated above.

 

[Jimlock]

The biggest problem with optimizing the save DC through intelligence is that it's a sub-par option for an assassin, considering that you will need dexterity to avoid being hit in combat and for stealth skills, strength for straight-out combat (the kind of which you tend to do far more than death attacks, in general) and intelligence is therefore a second or third option, since it affects your spellcasting (which isn't a great factor for assassins, as their most used spells tend to be the buffing type rather than the "roll a save against" type, at least in my experience) and your save DC, more than anything.

This said, I agree, if you want to focus on it, you can get it to decent DC's, but I still think that's a sub-par option.

STR? important to an assassin? ...I completely disagree.

With weapon finesse, the only thing he's gonna be missing is those couple of hit points on damage. Not important. Rogue-sque characters usually depend on good use of SA to deal sufficient damage, not STR.

Dex and Int is what a good assassin needs... and I wouldn't find it as illogical if his Int was even bigger than his Dex (or at least equal).

 

[Dandu]

Well, you do need the Str to drag a body into a barrel.

 

[anest1s]

Well, you do need the Str to drag a body into a barrel.

But if you like the challenge you could talk him into the barrel, then kill him

 

[Jimlock]

exquisit approach

unfortunately...

You must spread some Experience Points around before giving it to anest1s again.

EDIT: A good reminder of how more important is Cha than Str to an assassin

 

[Sekhmet]

Death Ward :: d20srd.org
Extended Scrolls/Wands of Death Ward pretty much foil the entire class.

Also, regarding the conversation above, three levels of Swashbuckler can open up a lot of room to refocus an assassin's stat block to be Int heavy, and I believe I recall a dagger that increased the save DC by 2 somewhere. I'll try to find it.