"Death from Above" attack bonuses?

[Vaxalon]

Yeah, I'd say it probably does.

 

[LokiDR]

Yeah, I'd say it probably does.

If you are just sucking up the damage, I'd say no. You don't get AoO vs any sort of projectile.

 

[MarauderX]

...but would death from above provoke attacks of opportunity?

I dunno... it depends if it can really be treated as a charge, only at 90 degrees.

I would say yeah it would provoke an AoO if the opponent is aware of you and facing you, but as D&D doesn't use facing rules, the AoO would be automatic. As a rule, I use facing when appropriate to a situation although I like to keep it out of combat as much as possible, but I don't think the DM in this situation would buy it.

However, it could be used as a surprise attack after combat has started, much like a Shadow or other hiding creature as long as the unsuspecting misses spot and listen checks. Only then does it not provoke an AoO, and the attacker also gets all the associated bonuses on the attack roll. Does that sound reasonable?

 

[LokiDR]

I dunno... it depends if it can really be treated as a charge, only at 90 degrees.

But charges don't provoke AoOs.

I would say yeah it would provoke an AoO if the opponent is aware of you and facing you, but as D&D doesn't use facing rules, the AoO would be automatic. As a rule, I use facing when appropriate to a situation although I like to keep it out of combat as much as possible, but I don't think the DM in this situation would buy it.

D&D takes a very different approach to gaming than a lot of old FASA games, include Battletech. The abstraction of combat is becoming one of the few things that separate the game from a mini game. 3.5 went to lengths to remove facing (again) with the tower shield. So I wouldn't put it in for something like this. Unless you add a torso twist phase to combat, of course

However, it could be used as a surprise attack after combat has started, much like a Shadow or other hiding creature as long as the unsuspecting misses spot and listen checks. Only then does it not provoke an AoO, and the attacker also gets all the associated bonuses on the attack roll. Does that sound reasonable?

You do get an AoO on a bull rush, but you do not get an AoO on a falling object or person. So, is this tatic more like a bull rush or a falling person?

 

[MarauderX]

But charges don't provoke AoOs.


D&D takes a very different approach to gaming than a lot of old FASA games, include Battletech. The abstraction of combat is becoming one of the few things that separate the game from a mini game. 3.5 went to lengths to remove facing (again) with the tower shield. So I wouldn't put it in for something like this. Unless you add a torso twist phase to combat, of course



You do get an AoO on a bull rush, but you do not get an AoO on a falling object or person. So, is this tatic more like a bull rush or a falling person?

Well, I was also thinking of a bunch of swashbucklers leaping down on the party from a balcony and the party not getting any AoOs although they saw them the whole time. Not so fair if you already have your weapon drawn and all you have to do is hold it up for those jumping jokers to run in to while you are watching them fall on you.

I knew battletech was missing something -- AoOs and readied torso-twisting actions!

 

[Caliban]

Well, entering your target's square does normally provoke an AoO.

That's the reason given for the AoO from doing a Bull-Rush or striking someone with an unarmed attack. So I think that falling on someone would count.

Of course, there are feats that allow you to avoid provoking an AoO in those situations.

Improved Death From Above?

Falling with Style?

 

[LokiDR]

Well, I was also thinking of a bunch of swashbucklers leaping down on the party from a balcony and the party not getting any AoOs although they saw them the whole time. Not so fair if you already have your weapon drawn and all you have to do is hold it up for those jumping jokers to run in to while you are watching them fall on you.

There wouldn't be an AoO if they just charged. In this case, I would use either a charging grapple or have them leap down next to their targets (higher ground and charging, not much else)

I knew battletech was missing something -- AoOs and readied torso-twisting actions!

ROFL

 

[LokiDR]

Well, entering your target's square does normally provoke an AoO.

That's the reason given for the AoO from doing a Bull-Rush or striking someone with an unarmed attack. So I think that falling on someone would count.

Death from above could just be a jump to next to the person, appling charge and high ground bonus. Obviously, no AoO.

In any case where you are controling your movement into another persons square (grapple, bull rush, unarmed strike) you provoke an AoO. But you never get to "AoO" on an object that is fired or stikes the character as a whole even though certain characters could do things like slice incoming boulders in half.

In example, I wouldn't expect to get an AoO against a person fired at me from a cannon. Likewise, I would not expect an AoO against a person thrown at me (Savage Species, fling enemy). The tradeoff, of course, is that I can expect the person to take a similar amount of damage as I do. They may mitigate this with skill checks, but only so far.

Of course, there are feats that allow you to avoid provoking an AoO in those situations.

Improved Death From Above?

Falling with Style?

Cannonshot?
Hard Hurled Halfling?

Urge to make presige class......

 

[MarauderX]

I think the final application would have to include an AoO to stop the power gamers from casting fly then pouncing on each opponent using a 'Death from Above' (DFA from now on). Levitate would also be a little over the top IMO, as each round the attacker could use a DFA to add on to any bonuses they already possess.

Using an opposed spot/hide check and a listen/move silently check would have to apply in my game, as you would not get the AoO if the attacker succeeded at both. Bonuses for spotting an attacker would apply of course, as would surprise and such. I like the route that it would take, as it would be possible for a shadowdancer to more easily perform the above tactic than a crazed barbarian.

Even if the defender doesn't get the AoO, she can still manage to get off an AoO if the attacker decides he wants to move out of the defenders threatened area to prevent any cheesy tactics involving DFA and then Mobility to fly away. The attacker would have to tumble to get away with no AoO form the defender, making the DFA a very cool trick for rogues. He could do a DFA, tumble, then fly away to hide; rinse and repeat. Now this brings up a whole other topic -- how do I "tumble-fly?"

Being a defender, this is similar to a hit-and-run tactic by enemies with a higher movement rate than the party. The attackers charge the party, attack, and use Mobility and tumble to the other side of the party. Then the party uses their initiative to chase and make some attacks on them before they tumble and run to safety. The attackers didn't get away without the defenders getting at least one swipe at them, and I think DFA should be at least be the same.

I really like some of the attack bonuses mentioned, and will probably incorporate them into my game as a DM.

As far as damage, I am thinking it could be dealt in a few ways -
1. as a bonus to Str (of, say, +2?) for striking with a weapon or unarmed strike
2. d4 (or d6, d8...d20??) with or without an attack
3. additional d4 (or d6) to attack for every 10 tons...er...I mean 200 lbs.
4. additional d4 (or d6) to attack, plus d4 (d6) for each size catagory larger than the defender.

I am leaning towards option 3 or 4, as they follow more closely to how weight does damage. I don't see many halflings doing a DFA and making it count vs. ogre barbarians, but I do see an ogre barbarian squashing 2+ halflings in a DFA.

 

[LokiDR]

I think the final application would have to include an AoO to stop the power gamers from casting fly then pouncing on each opponent using a 'Death from Above' (DFA from now on). Levitate would also be a little over the top IMO, as each round the attacker could use a DFA to add on to any bonuses they already possess.

There is alread a combat manuver for fly: dive. You provoke an AoO and deal double damage. That is simple enough.

Using an opposed spot/hide check and a listen/move silently check would have to apply in my game, as you would not get the AoO if the attacker succeeded at both. Bonuses for spotting an attacker would apply of course, as would surprise and such. I like the route that it would take, as it would be possible for a shadowdancer to more easily perform the above tactic than a crazed barbarian.

Careful, you are almost getting into removing AoO because a person is denied there dex. By the rules, that doesn't happen. That is only the case for flat-footed, and that only happens at the begining of the combat.

Then again, you can house rule that away, but offically you do get an AoO against invisible or hiding opponents (unless there is a 3.5 change to this)

Even if the defender doesn't get the AoO, she can still manage to get off an AoO if the attacker decides he wants to move out of the defenders threatened area to prevent any cheesy tactics involving DFA and then Mobility to fly away. The attacker would have to tumble to get away with no AoO form the defender, making the DFA a very cool trick for rogues. He could do a DFA, tumble, then fly away to hide; rinse and repeat. Now this brings up a whole other topic -- how do I "tumble-fly?"

This tatic doesn't make sense if you think of the combat manuver the same way you think of charge: a special full round action that includes movement (falling) and an attack. Then, the best you get is DFA (no AoO), oppent's turn, then you can run off and hide. Besides that, you will likely be taking falling damage, so an AoO would make the manuver deal more damage to you than the other guy.

Tumble-fly: just roll tumble. I don't think there are any rules for this, and it should be easier to move past a person if you can move in any direction.

Being a defender, this is similar to a hit-and-run tactic by enemies with a higher movement rate than the party. The attackers charge the party, attack, and use Mobility and tumble to the other side of the party. Then the party uses their initiative to chase and make some attacks on them before they tumble and run to safety. The attackers didn't get away without the defenders getting at least one swipe at them, and I think DFA should be at least be the same.

I really like some of the attack bonuses mentioned, and will probably incorporate them into my game as a DM.

Even with something like spring attack, you still move then hit, just like a charge. Keeping DFA as much like charage as possible should make it more balanced.

As far as damage, I am thinking it could be dealt in a few ways -
1. as a bonus to Str (of, say, +2?) for striking with a weapon or unarmed strike
2. d4 (or d6, d8...d20??) with or without an attack
3. additional d4 (or d6) to attack for every 10 tons...er...I mean 200 lbs.
4. additional d4 (or d6) to attack, plus d4 (d6) for each size catagory larger than the defender.

I am leaning towards option 3 or 4, as they follow more closely to how weight does damage. I don't see many halflings doing a DFA and making it count vs. ogre barbarians, but I do see an ogre barbarian squashing 2+ halflings in a DFA.

Whatever you decide, it should be weaker than a dragon's crush

Crush (Ex): This special attack allows a flying or jumping dragon of at least Huge size to land on opponents as a standard action, using its whole body to crush them. Crush attacks are effective only against opponents three or more size categories smaller than the dragon (though it can attempt normal overrun or grapple attacks against larger opponents).
A crush attack affects as many creatures as can fit under the dragon’s body. Creatures in the affected area must succeed on a Reflex save (DC equal to that of the dragon’s breath weapon) or be pinned, automatically taking bludgeoning damage during the next round unless the dragon moves off them. If the dragon chooses to maintain the pin, treat it as a normal grapple attack. Pinned opponents take damage from the crush each round if they don’t escape.
A crush attack deals the indicated damage plus 1-1/2 times the dragon’s Strength bonus (round down).

One decent implementation of DFA is tone down this ability, give it an AoO, make the crusher take falling damage and give them a free grapple check.