Death's Door [Optional rule]

[Frostmarrow]

I think it would be simpler to just say "A character dies one round after he reaches below -10 HP." None of this confusion that way, and it keeps the amount of time given to recover consistent.

Sure it's easier but it becomes a guarantee for the player's that your friends always get one chance each to save you. This would lead to a game where you almost never died from damage.

With my suggestion you just never know if they will make it on time (but grants a slim chance just the same). Think of the excitement around the table when the only person who can help out is the half-orc barabarian with zero ranks in heal! If he makes it the crowd will go wild.

In fact your suggestion does not keep the amount of time consistent. Everything in one round happens simultaneously, you know. My suggestion addresses this as only those who act at the same time (only a heartbeat slower) gets a chance to save the person who just sustained a lethal injury.

But hey. It's anybody's game. You do it the way you feel is right for your campaign. We will try this out.

 

[graydoom]

Originally posted by Frostmarrow
In fact your suggestion does not keep the amount of time consistent. Everything in one round happens simultaneously, you know. My suggestion addresses this as only those who act at the same time (only a heartbeat slower) gets a chance to save the person who just sustained a lethal injury.

Seems to me that exactly one round given after being floored is consistent with itself. Everybody gets one round after being floored before dying. How is that not consistent? 1 round equals 1 round equals 1 round.

The problem with your way is first, the variance in time of how long till death (which is all personal preference, and so doesn't really matter right now), and that if someone simply cannot take a standard action, they do not die. Just clarify the rule by saying "If a character who is at less than -10 HP would be able to take an action because it is his initiative (whether or not he is prevented from taking that action by being Held, helpless, slowed, unconscious, or anything), that character dies." This phrasing keeps the intent of what you want without getting confused with standard actions and people not being able to take them. With this phrasing, it is clear that even if a character cannot take a standard action on their initiative, they die.

 

[Frostmarrow]

Seems to me that exactly one round given after being floored is consistent with itself. Everybody gets one round after being floored before dying. How is that not consistent? 1 round equals 1 round equals 1 round.

You might be floored on different initiatives. You can be floored on your own initiative by an AOO or on someone elses [any] initiative. Therefore the time between the moment you get floored til the time you die won't be consistent. (Edit: Oh, I seem to have misunderstood . A round is a round, agreed.)

However, as I stated above; that's not my problem with your suggestion. The problem is that doing it your way virtually guarantees that you will be saved. Ie. every ally in the vicinity will have a shot at saving you.

The problem with your way is first, the variance in time of how long till death (which is all personal preference, and so doesn't really matter right now), and that if someone simply cannot take a standard action, they do not die. Just clarify the rule by saying "If a character who is at less than -10 HP would be able to take an action because it is his initiative (whether or not he is prevented from taking that action by being Held, helpless, slowed, unconscious, or anything), that character dies." This phrasing keeps the intent of what you want without getting confused with standard actions and people not being able to take them. With this phrasing, it is clear that even if a character cannot take a standard action on their initiative, they die.

You are absolutely right about the phrasing. I'll get right to it. Thanks. Naturally a dying character can't take an action of any kind.

By the way. Yes, sometimes there will be time enough for several characters to attempt ...cpr? and at other times no one will have the opportunity. Perhaps it's a bit unfair - but hey, it it weren't for this rule they'd die instantly, right?

The reason I advocate this idea is that it will have a minimum impact on the game (and it's precious balance) but still allow for some characters to be saved if allies react quickly. We will try it out in my party and if it doesn't work we'll try your idea instead.

Alright, here goes - take it apart:

Death's Door (Optional rule)

Even seconds after death occurs it is possible to save a character. Until the soul has departed a Heal check (DC 20) or any sort of healing that cures at least 10 points of damage revives the character and stabilizes the character at -9 hp. The soul will depart as soon as the dead character would have a standard action available if he was alive. The soul cannot be affected by spells in anyway so it's impossible to delay the departure of the soul by the use of a slow-spell, for example.

 

[Darklone]

Dying

Hey guys, I liked that idea with the Hold Person (FREEZE!)

Btw, I use a rule kinda this:

- Players with neg hp are still able to act as long as their neg hp do not exceed their Con mod (if positive). They can take actions such as drink ing a potion, getting a potion from their backpack OR try to bandage their wounds OR drag themselves 5ft wide. Aside from a Cure Minor Wounds (only Verbal), no spellcasting is allowed.
- I use a critical hit list for permanent damage. Posted this a while ago on this board. That way players sometimes wish they would have died with -9 points of damage ...
- Death occurs at 10+Con modifier negative hitpoints. That way, high level chars do not receive any boni. I think it's fair since they got a lot of hitpoints more. If they start to fall unconscious... THEIR FAULT.

 

[MonkeyBoy]

I was just cruising through the Lost City Of Gaxmoor preview by Troll Lord Games (see ENWorld front page for link) and it has a great optional rule where the number of negative hit points a character can suffer is his constitution bonus + level. So a 5th level fighter with a bonus of +4 can go to -9 hit points, but at 20th level with the same bonus it is -24 hit points before dying. This makes it a little more lethal for low level characters, but also a bit more realistic, while giving high level characters a bit better chance to survive massive damage. I'm definitely using this rule in my campaign.

This is not so hot a rule, I mean; its fine for your 5th level fighter, but what about the 1st level character with 7 CON? He dies at 1hp (before he's even knocked unconcious)! If he's a wizard, he'll only have 2hp to begin with...

Bad Rule, Bad! (smack)

Thinking about "time for the soul to depart"; remember that IRL, your brain dosn't take whats concidered irreprabale damage for 4 MINUTES after respiration is stopped. So I'd advise that 6 seconds to get to a "dead" person is a bit tight

Maybe you should just make the distinction that recovering from -10 or worse requires MUCH more effort than from -9, and that there's something like a 1 minute window before you absolutely have to use resurrection type magic...

 

[Frostmarrow]

So, IRL you don't sustain brain-damage until after 4 minutes? Cool. However, in order to revive someone you need highly trained medical staff and 21st century technology? This is not available in the medieval world of D&D-fantasy. I agree that six seconds is a bit tight but perhaps I should explain my purposes of the Death Door Optional rule from a DM point of view.

When a member of the party dies the player's initial reaction is to sigh and let everybody know he is dead. If he's simply unconscious the rest of the party will know. So if he is unconscious the party cleric will come running in the hopes of saving the character. On the other hand if he is dead the cleric will use his time elsewhere. I know this is meta-gaming and that perhaps players should know better. However, I think it's easier to tweak the rules than to teach adults.

Now, if one uses my suggestion the cleric (or anyone else for that matter) will always have a reason to go check up on a fallen comrade. Because even if he is dead there might be a chance to save him. Moreover, it gives the player who just had his favorite character killed a sense of closure. "I'm dead but there is still hope... still hope ...nah. Ouch - I'm DEAD!" Plus, everybody, player's and DM, knows he died at the very same time. It silly that the dead guy is the first to know, don't you think?

I want people to die at -10 hp because I think that by and large it works fine. However, I like my players to feel in control of the game, even at dire moments such as these. If you simply die when you reach -10 hp the game comes to an anti-climax. But, by allowing a revival attempt to be staged under certain circumstances you add excitement to the game.

I don't want death to always be delayed in this way because sometimes you decapite your opponent or in other ways harm someone beyond saving. That is why I don't like the idea of making the character officially die after exactly one round. So, sometimes you hit a victim so hard that his soul is literally thrown out of the body in a very sudden way. When this happens you might feel obliged to describe the gory details.

It's dangerous to draw AOOs. If one uses my rule above it becomes even more dangerous. So if a badly wounded character takes his chances to quaff a potion he is more likely to die than if he was defending himself. I think this makes sense. Also, the rule doesn't change the way things are per the core rules. If for example you died at -20 hp or if it took a full round to die it would be a favored tactic to quaff a potion at the last possible moment whilst still in melee. However, by the core rules it's extremely dangerous and I want to keep it that way.

O well, I'm ranting. I'll get back to you on sunday and report how it worked out. -Pardon, what if no one dies, I hear you ask? I assure you someone always does...

 

[MonkeyBoy]

So, IRL you don't sustain brain-damage until after 4 minutes? Cool. However, in order to revive someone you need highly trained medical staff and 21st century technology? This is not available in the medieval world of D&D-fantasy. I agree that six seconds is a bit tight but perhaps I should explain my purposes of the Death Door Optional rule from a DM point of view.

That's _irreprable_ brain damage; to the point that even if you get the heart and breathing going again, mr brain has died...

And whilst you don't have 21st century tech, you do have this cool magic stuff; you know - always works, can recover a being from death's door to full health in 6 seconds flat, 100% of the time (heal specifically), and in some cases could even return someone to life who has been dead for years...

DND medical aid kicks RL's ass, every single time

When I DM, I expect the player to tell me when they reach or pass 0HP, and from that point on _I_ keep track of damage and bleeding / dying. Solves that whole problem; once the PC is unconsious, the healing attempt is the next time the players know exactly what's up with the character...

Of course; when you go from fine to dead immediately, that's when those gory descriptions come into play...

 

[Gez]

DND medical aid kicks RL's ass, every single time

Not to say that D&D's remove disease is a panacea that can cure any disease, whereas RL's cures are always specific to one particular type of microbs and become less and less powerful as time pass and microbs adapt (so, for example, given that we feed cattle with huge amounts of antibiotics to kill the "less productive" of the intestine bacterias to make the beast digest "better" and grow faster -- it's true -- we help the creation of mutant bacterias that will be resistant to every remedy we have against them. This could lead us back to situation like in the dark age, when lots of diseases were death sentences. All that to brings more cash in a few person's wallets.). AIDS would be a very benign disease in D&D, since you have plenty of time to remove it before you begin to be really sick. Cancer ? Stone disease ? Rage ? Leucemia ? Mucoviscidosis ? Alzeimer ? A remove disease and it's gone ! From the rare and ugly to the common, one spell fit all and cure everything 100% of times !

******

As for the dying rules, it's not directly related to this one, but don't you find that peaple agonize to quickly, and that healing is too fast also ? Myself, I would propose a stabilization check every (10 + Con modifier) rounds, rather than every rounds, and have healing a wounded with a Heal check be a 1 minute (10 rounds) long action. This would be worse for low Con character who could die while they're being healed, and better for the stout tough guys than the standard rules. For average constitution, the length of Healing check / length of agony ratio don't change. And this allow to have people still dying even after the end of a battle.

More directly to the point, what would you think of this rule for Death's Door:
When a character is reduced to -10 or lower, he must make a Fortitude save (DC like for a Death from Massive Damage check (even if that creature is immune to death from massive damage)). If the save is successful, the character agonizes for 1 minute (ten full rounds) before dying. If the save is failed, the character dies instantly. This rule use the above house rule for stabilization time, without it replace by 1 full round if you don't use the previous house-rule. An agonizing character can be put back to -9 and stabilized with a successful Heal check (DC 35) or a Heal spell. In the latter case, the character don't regain all hit points as usual, but instead is put back to -1 hit point and stabilized.

Edit: And oh, "agonizing" is a new condition, worse than dying, in which a character is when his hit point counter is at -10. It is possible to perform a coup de grace as a free action on an agonizing character (a mere kick in the wound is more than enough), and the agonizing character don't get the usual Fortitude save (can you say "overkill" ?).

 

[Nik_the_Pig]

How's this. I've stolen a few of the above ideas and writen it in Players Handbook speak but it seems ok to me. Please note the difference between a Con bonus (positive only) and a Con modifier (+ or -)

Death's Door:

DISABLED
When your current hit points drop to between 0 and –(Con bonus) inclusive, you’re disabled.

Otherwise as per PHB, page 129.

DYING
When your character’s current hip points drop to between –(1 + Con bonus) and –(9 + Con modifier) inclusive, he’s dying.

He immediately falls unconscious and can take no actions. At the DM’s whim he may allow your character to mutter a few last words before falling into unconscious and possibly death.

At the end of the first round and then every (10 + Con modifier) rounds, roll d% to see whether he stabilises. He has 10% chance to become stable. If he doesn’t, he loses 1 hit point.

If the character’s hip points fall to –(10 + Con bonus) he either dies or agonizes before death (see below).

You can attempt to keep a dying character from losing any more hip points and make him stable with a successful Heal check (DC 15). See below in relation to length of time it takes to conduct a Heal check.

Otherwise as per PHB, page 129.

DEAD
When you’re character’s hit points drop to –(10 + Con modifier) or lower, he must make a Fortitude save (DC 15). If the save is successful, the character “agonizes” for 1 minute (ten full rounds) before dying. If the save is failed, the character dies instantly.

An agonizing character can be put back to –(9 + Con modifier) and stabilized with a successful Heal check (DC 35) or a Heal spell. In the latter case, the character don't regain all hit points as usual, but instead is put back to -1 hit point and stabilized.

It is possible to perform a coup de grace as a Standard action on an agonizing character (a mere kick in the wound is more than enough), and the agonizing character does not get the usual Fortitude save.

Otherwise as per PHB, page 129.

HEALING
Heal attempts (checks) are long actions, taking a full 1 minute (10 rounds). In this respect a character with a negative Con modifier may have to make a stabilisation check and in doing so fall to –(10 + Con modifier) and die (with a failed Fortitude check) before a friendly character has been able to complete a Heal attempt.

In addition to the standard effects of “cooperation” in relation to skill checks (PHB, page 62), if done successfully in the case of Heal checks, it halves the time the attempt takes (i.e. 5 rounds rather than 10).

 

[Frostmarrow]

I promised I'd get back to you on the Death's Door rule. We introduced it into my game and this is what happened:

The party were fighting the adventure boss. The cleric and fighter charged it. The archer was shooting at it. The AB was dishing out some major damage. The cleric and fighter were protected by stoneskin spells. After awhile the fighter was nevertheless sent to -26 hp or something. The cleric didn't get a chance to react but the archer did. The archer does not know healing and figured that it would be quite a longshot trying to save the fighter. Instead he made a full-round attack on the AB, which killed it. Next the fighter hit the floor, officially dead. The cleric had to raise him instead, which cost the fighter a level.

Now, I think it worked great. I didn't feel as I was responsible for the PC death. The archer pondered the idea of coming to the rescue but ditched it. Everybody around the table knew at the exact moment that the fighter had died. It felt very realistic to me.

Now, since the adventure is over I'm handing over the DM-hat to the archer-player. He says he won't use this rule but he is changing the rules for resurrection instead. (You won't lose a level for dying. Instead you lose a point in a randomly determined ability score.) We will see how this works out.